Suggestion about crit table

[Johnny]

Alright so we managed to come up with some ideas for the crit table. Main idea behind this is to end this abuse that last for too long.

Keep in mind that what is proposed here is open for advice its just a suggestion feel free to bring constructive feedback.

So the first thing needed here i believe is to bring back the sniper class as it should be. That need a couple of changes in some perks related to criticals.
Those changes are taken in consideration and need to be updated at the same time as the crit table.

Perks to modify:
-RBTE 50% helmet crit chance and crit power mod.
-Stonewall No longer protects against KO only KD from grenades.
-Man of steel give a -15 crit power mod.

We calculated this with this crit table in the optic that MOS+ bonehead counter Better crit and prevents the nasty 101+ roll as it should be.
It will also render stonewall still useful while not being a must have.
RBTE modifed will make this perk more attractive for snipers.

Old crit table for reference:

Spoiler: show

Suggested crit table:


Take in consideration that in the current crit table there is no defense rolls what so ever in the groin for 2 rolls against KO or KD so sometimes you will be knocked down + knocked out resulting in a KO for 15-20ap wich is ridiculous.
In the suggested crit table you cannot be KD + KO

What we are trying to do here is to make the crit table more progressive while not changing it that much.

For unaimed shots the 101+ roll KO has been deleted and replaced by a knock down.

Bypasses roll luck and arent automatic and are have their own separated roll.
KO while still present arent automatic exept for the last roll.

It is kinda obvious also that the weapons that still have crit roll bonus (aka turbo plasma/ plasma), have this bonus removed as well.

[Corosive]

Let's get people talking about this.

[Kilgore]

Yep, more feedback and discussion is needed.

[Rando]

I really like the idea of there being more KD's and less KO's, and I especially like no more KO's from unaimed torso shots. God that was the most annoying feeling in the world, being knocked out by a pancor burst or some noob torso shotting with his turbo plasma. Knockouts either needed a severe nerf in where they appear on the crit table, or a severe nerf in how much AP they steal, and this updated one seems to deliver on the former. No doubt in my mind that this crit table is a huge improvement over the current one.
The only thing I might suggest is to make eye crippling a bit easier for snipers, maybe add on an extra -1 point on the perception check on those rolls.

Man of Steel getting a buff is a good idea - as of right now there is no reason to pick it over Stonewall.

With the suggested changes:

Man of Steel: You don't get protection from being juggled by grenade launchers/rockets, but you have a great protection vs aimed shot knockouts, being crippled, etc.

Stonewall: You run a greatly increased risk of being knocked out, but avoid the bullshit from autoknockdown weapons.



An interesting trade off. As of right now Man of Steel basically does nothing because the amount it reduces crit rolls by is meagre in comparison to the bonuses snipers get.

[Beer]

I think it looks good. More effects at lower crits that get better as you go up but less crazy powerful crits for the best rolls. So instead of getting hit and either having nothing happen at all or get ko kd blind bypass for 200+ DMG, the effects are more spread out.

 I'm no king of game balance but seems like a crit should do something and most effects are missing from lower levels of old table so even when you crit it meant nothing many times. On my 223 sneak all I did was shoot and pray for lucky roll because though I crit a lot usually it did nothing except when I was lucky enough it destroyed them with huge ko bypass in 1 shot and they had no way to stop it then I plink away while they sit there til they die. Would be more fun and active battle if I would kd more to drain their ap/have a little breathing room and blind and get ko if I'm lucky like this table. On my tank it won't be 1 shot and I just get ready to regear because I'm ko and at 100 HP instantly, or get hit for 20 HP crit with no effects and just kill the enemy.

Just my thought since feedback is requested. But you never know how something will be for certain until it is tested.

[KestreL]

I'm not very bright when it comes to crit tables. I understand basic criticals and how knockouts work. So maybe I can give a bit of constuctive advice.

First of all I'd like to mention that making perks that put weapon crits at a stable and reliable experience is a bad idea. This encourages people to make builds that can only fight other builds. And right there - you break balance.

Making a weapon that is OP when fighting against no-anti crit/crit power perks will force people to take these perks. And even after taking them the weapon will be put at a balance. And after taking such perks like e.g: Toughness's - crits - anti crit perks. Etc, the charecter will be weak and easily ate by a swarm of people using fire gecko shells. And yeah, I know that there is not much to do without a masive change after wipe to these weapons (Which will probably be done).

I think it's pointless to add perks to charecter to bring balance to curtain weapons. Better to fix the table so that crits are decent without anti crit perks, and crits are quite bad against anti crit perks.

Dunno if that helped. Just make take on the situation.

[Corosive]

I difinately think that minimum to everything and anything...

Toughness should be pickable at level 3, and should be required for even tougher.

As it is now the level 3 perks available are pretty fucking shitty lol. There are way too many "useless" ones to me and my build/playing style. Adding toughness to the magic (like 2238 had in it's prime) creates many more build possibilities. By the time you get around to be able to pick toughness there are way better perks to take instead.

Toughness and Even Tougher should be basic generic perks at low level. It helps you progress and you'll need it for combat.

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Critical table should be more progressive
Eye shots/ etc
1.5x minimum
2x
2.5x
3x
3.5

No instant kills or constant knockouts. Replace with knockdowns as a more likely thing, making counter perks more useful.

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Make AC reduce damage not chance to miss, or make it do both. High AC and AC Perks should make you a tank to generic base damage. But weak to armor piercing stuff.

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Buff mid level small guns +2 min damage +2 max damage
Add piercing to 10mm smg

Buff Flamers +2 m/mx

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No instant kills if you can pass checks/ AC/ DT crap

Min 2 shots to get killed by a player. Let a critical reduce their HP to 1, instead of death.

Knockdown always happens before a Knockout.

If you get knockdowned too many times in a short span -> Knocked out

Knockouts should be reserved to rare hits, or for people that aren't wearing helmets that can stop the shooters bullet.


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We must brainstorm this one. Critical table is very important, but I think the community can really help us improve it. It's been like 2 goddamn years.

Post everything you DON'T like. But please keep in mind aimed shots vs fast shot.

[Johnny]

Man of Steel: You don't get protection from being juggled by grenade launchers/rockets, but you have a great protection vs aimed shot knockouts, being crippled, etc.

Stonewall: You run a greatly increased risk of being knocked out, but avoid the bullshit from autoknockdown weapons.

This is basically the tradeoff we are proposing. By calculation if you are facing a sniper with RBTE and better crits against Man of steel it will be a max roll of (100+20(BC))-(15MOS+(10(armor crit resist)-5(RBTE Negating 50% crit resist). So MOS will counter better crit preventing an attacker to roll 101+ unless he is using a +5crit power weapon.

This is why RBTE need a change too to go with this. It will also end this sniper tank that have been abused for too long.

MOS will be then the counter of better crits as it shouldve been.

First of all I'd like to mention that making perks that put weapon crits at a stable and reliable experience is a bad idea. This encourages people to make builds that can only fight other builds. And right there - you break balance.

Currently there is no balance because stonewall halves the chances of being knocked out. Like I said previously MOS will prevent the heavier roll but it still possible to achieve it with +5 crit power weapon. Wich can of course be counter by a -5 crit power helmet.

If you look at the crit table we are proposing, MOS will not prevent the 91-100 roll to happen meaning you can still be bypassed if successful LK roll for the attacker AND Knocked Out if The roll again is successful so mostly 50% chance assuming every pvp char have 10EN.

Keep in mind acosta that we have think about it and we know that Tanks cannot have more than 5LK Fully implanted so your chance of bypassing is still correct in the eyes (50% at LK5).

Toughness and Even Tougher should be basic generic perks at low level. It helps you progress and you'll need it for combat.

If we manage to find a solution to fix this critical table and agree an a solid base then we will talk about this dont worry we already have a lot of ideas about toughness but it will be after this.

Critical table should be more progressive
Eye shots/ etc
1.5x minimum
2x
2.5x
3x
3.5

I made this with the help of a player who played sniper build since a very long time and that would be a too big change for snipers considering the actual stackable DR. Problem is that Normal DR is too high and sniper weapons have a too wide damage range when energy weapon hit too hard du to low armor energy resist.
That will be also the subject of another post already discussed with various people and i can say we all agree on a lot of things about this.
Again this will come in time.
First crit table.

[vig]

First off, I like many of the suggested changes to the crit table from the original poster. However, there are some minor issues with it. I will propose an edited version of the suggested crit table and explain some of the minor changes that I have decided to make to it further down:

*
I think addressing KO's before nerfing them out of the crit table is in order before the rest.
So the main issue with the KO's is that they just steal too much of your valuable AP in a high-octane fast paced RT battle and they feel undeserved because the shooter just got lucky and laid you out. Essentially, if you get knocked out in the heat of the battle you might as well consider yourself dead and there is nothing that you can do to influence getting out of the prone state once you are in it. Perhaps reducing the AP cost of getting knocked out is in order? I'm not entirely certain what the current ko ap cost is, but it seems like it's just way too much for the pace of the game. So I'd suggest reducing the current cost by 25-50% straight up.

**
In the suggested new crit table you get rewarded for rolling low 0-20. That means that as long as you crit, you can incur a status effect regardless of how bad your roll is and that is unacceptable. 0-20 is meant to represent your crit power roll being SHIT and that is what you should get for rolling it. Otherwise there is absolutely no real downside, only consistent upside, which is not the way critical hits were meant to work in the first place. How were they meant to work? Like a gamble. You take a gamble and hope to do well. Just take a look at the original crit table's weakest power rolls. You can't take the randomness aspect out of the critical hits because it is not difficult to incur a critical hit with a focused build.
So what does it all mean then and what should be done. Nothing extravagant, essentially the 0-20 power rolls should remain as they originally were. Think of it as you rolling a crit power roll of -120 and the bad effect is that your attack doesn't really do much except for increased damage-> you don't get what you want and what you want is to incur a devastating status effect. Be grateful that crit roll 0 doesn't just blow you up.
bottom line, maintain the shittiness of 0-20 power rolls as a contrast to the awesomeness of 120 rolls.

The Suggested crit table by Original Poster for reference


edited version:


***
Regarding Toughness, Even Tougher, Stonewall, Quick Recovery and Man of Steel and other perks: they should be addressed after the table is discussed; appropriate changes can be made to the perks afterwards.
[Toughness] could be Normal DR +10% Normal DT+1(yes, 1, not 2. Currently, Toughness seems to work as Even Tougher's retarded brother)
[Even Tougher] Normal DR +5% Normal DT+3
sum total of them both combined being 15%DR and 4DT
Why so? DR is very good against critical hits, DT is great against bursts, so [Even Tougher] focuses on burst protection, [Toughness] on single powerful shots/crit protection.

[Johnny]

Your ideas are interesting vig.
Concerning the KO duration it is mainly because on the current crit table you get a KD + a KO so you have AP reduction of a KO + a KD.
So for the roll in the groin 71-90 we came up with the idea of giving it a KO chance instead of auto KD+ roll KO. I think the KO chance is enough for groin.
The problem at the moment is that for a sniper its either score a KO or be dead. This is the main problem.
I like the changes youve made thoughbut the groin I'd rather keep a low KO chance rather than a KD+ KO roll like it was before.
I also agree with the lowest rolls it can be changed


I like the idea of reducing AP cost of KO too. But the damage between small guns and plasma for example is too high. Small guns need a buff, by reducing the gap between min max damage and make it more stable.
I want to wait before talking about that but a lot of things need to changed.

For toughnesses we had ideas of simply removing the DT bonus but it depends on what will happen with implants because bursters might get too powerfull.
If we change snipers we need to change tanks as well but sniper more than anyone need those precious AP, so a change in drugs is to keep in mind too.

More feedback please!

[vig]

Concerning the KO duration it is mainly because on the current crit table you get a KD + a KO so you have AP reduction of a KO + a KD.
So for the roll in the groin 71-90 we came up with the idea of giving it a KO chance instead of auto KD+ roll KO. I think the KO chance is enough for groin.
The problem at the moment is that for a sniper its either score a KO or be dead. This is the main problem.
I like the changes youve made thoughbut the groin I'd rather keep a low KO chance rather than a KD+ KO roll like it was before.

If you look at the groin KO else KD part, "else" means that if you don't get a successful Knock Out (it's not likely), then you do not miss out on knocking down. As in if you don't get a knock out on a mid-powerful groin crit, you still get a chance to knock down if knock out fails. But if knock out succeeds, then there is no knockdown.

I like the idea of reducing AP cost of KO too. But the damage between small guns and plasma for example is too high. Small guns need a buff, by reducing the gap between min max damage and make it more stable.
I want to wait before talking about that but a lot of things need to changed.

I think an ammo and weapon rebalance thread is in order as well. For example I was thinking that .223 ammo should get the penetrate perk but have less %DR than it has now. Some ammo is unusable in pvp nowadays, like the 7.62mm in m60 and fnfal. Actually, most ammo that doesn't have penetrate is near unusable in pvp. This all can be addressed either by changing the resistance giving perks or looking at the ammo/weapons individually and looking at their damage output on the field.

For toughnesses we had ideas of simply removing the DT bonus but it depends on what will happen with implants because bursters might get too powerfull.
If we change snipers we need to change tanks as well but sniper more than anyone need those precious AP, so a change in drugs is to keep in mind too.

The vast majority of weapons in the game are Normal damage based and near-useless against Normal DR%/DT focused builds. They do not have penetrate weapon perks nor penetrating ammo. They do not have alternative damage type ammo or they do too little damage to make any significant impact. There needs to be a standard for determining whether a weapon is good enough or not. Something along the lines of taking out someone in CAMK2 with high hp but no DR% perks in a certain amount of time.
Do small guns need a buff? Not all of them, maybe not even most of them. High plasma damage doesn't mean anything, since decent armour has decent plasma res on it. Yes, by itself, looking at the numbers on weapons only shows that plasma weapons are really powerful, but then you take a look at plasma ammo (MFC) and what do you see? Nothing impressive: plasma ammo has no armour penetration nor damage modifiers, while some commonly used pvp normal type ammo has -DR% and penetrate perks on them. Looking at the bigger picture, plasma and laser weapons get weakened significantly by every point of resistance the target has, whereas a gun with DT splitting perks and decent damage doesn't suffer from minor increases in the opponent's resistance. Everything is relative in this case. So it's as I said, there needs to be a standard amount of HP that needs to be reduced to -20 in a specific number of APs in a certain amount of time.

[Wind_Drift]

5 years playing a sniper here, though very little experience playing tankers (so I don't remmeber epic KO's, only 6 HP critical hits).

Two things immediately come to mind. KO AND KD is a bit much. I also think it should only be one or the other, never both.

Secondly Quick Recovery has barely been mentioned, as a level 3 perk with low requirements I think it should definitely be considered as part of the discussion as other perks are. For a long time the perk wasn't working properly, but I don't know if/when it was fixed.

I'll revisit the thread after work when I have time and a real computer instead of an iPotato at my disposal.

[Corosive]

BUMP

[Johnny]

If you look at the groin KO else KD part, "else" means that if you don't get a successful Knock Out (it's not likely), then you do not miss out on knocking down.

Thats a good idea but i dont know if thats achievable to be honest need a dev advice here im afraid.
We tried to make it simple at maximum.

Concerning the changes youve made i dont see any objection for the moment looks good so far.

I think an ammo and weapon rebalance thread is in order as well.

Kilgore has already something in mind apparently dont know what it is tho. But a rebalance of weapon and ammo would be huge so if he already did something no need for this. Would be great to see it tho but eh...

Yes, by itself, looking at the numbers on weapons only shows that plasma weapons are really powerful, but then you take a look at plasma ammo (MFC) and what do you see? Nothing impressive: plasma ammo has no armour penetration nor damage modifiers

Plasma weapon are single shot weapon so it means its used for aimed shots.
So were talking about crit table here where damage in head in multiplied by 3 and groin by 2.5 thats why the ammo got no DR mod it would be too powerful.

[eight8]

ideas people who play only with crt brusters withot stone wall and have str1... y make game only 4 u... i play with normal tank and dont have problems with kos. i have ew sniper and only with very good turbo plasma take high dm and ko people. my english is shit so i will say in pl and u can translate... przy tego typu zmianach sniper i sniper cripler build przestanie istniec w tej grze. stone wall perk i sily 8 jest wystarczajaca obrona przed pancorem. ko snipera jest minimalne jezeli sie nauczysz poruszac (patrzec w lewo lub w prawo gdy strzela w oczy. gdy w reke lewa adwroc postac w lewo gdy w prawa odwroc postac w prawo. gdy w groin odwroc pstac tylem. z nogami tak jak z rekoma.) jezeli ludzie zaczna grac tylko jedna swoja postacia(co jest wysoce prawdopodobne po resecie) bd grac tankami i znowu bd problem i placz a crit bruister bd dominowal w grze bo przed krytycznymi obrazeniami z brusta nic nie zrobisz kazdy bd padal po 2 brustach takej postaci ... moim zdaniem lepiej bd dodac do helmow czy pancerzy dodatkowe odpornosci na ko. porobic komplety uzbrojenia ktore by dawaly dodatkowe bonusy np. perk stone wall (uzywane razem) gra bd trudniejsza... a nie tylko te same placzace posty...