Sneak changes

[Blarney]

I've heard there was some intention to change sneak in the future and I just wanted to open this topic on what people had heard, what people expect/want and maybe perhaps some dev input (even if its just to tell us it's none of our business and we should shut up about it )

My thoughts;
Personally I think getting sneak to 300 is a huge investment that should be rewarded, and I also think that restricting sneaking to leather armors is good for balance. I also think that motion sensors are needed and a good idea, though they should be rare or very expensive (also disarmable, like a trap), but there should be ways to counter it (like sneak walking with silent running not revealing you until within 5 hexes or a perk made to help avoid them).

The weapon restrictions are a bit too heavy in my opinion, but some are needed for obvious reasons, though people bypassing the restrictions is not cool and could definitely do with a fix of some sort.

I think the value of sneak is undermined when we can get to level 500 and have almost an infinite pool of skillpoints with minimal intelligence, so I think raising the sneak requirements of sneak perks (and making them very important for real sneakers) could help from preventing everyone being an awesome sneaker by level 150. Stealth running and silent death in particular, if they required say 250 sneak to acquire for example then you would only have people intent on being a sneaker capable of the best sneaking.

Or perhaps capping sneak at 200 past level 24 could prevent everybody from eventually getting really good at sneaking?

Anyway, that's just some thoughts on sneaking, please share yours and help the discussion

[Wind_Drift]

I like the current armor requirements and penalties. I hear we will have special sneaker armor of some sort. How that will work I don't know.

Sneak requires very few perks. Ghost is useless, Silent Death is optional, and Silent Running is too easy to get before level 29 since it requires only 100 skill.

Weapon penalties are too easily bypassed as long as you keep them out of an active slot until you're in position to fire.

Stealth boys are also useless, as is Stealth Girl perk, since once you hit 300 sneak they give no real benefit.

There are a lot of possible solutions, but it depends on which problem we're trying to fix.

At the moment sneaks are more predatory than scouts IMO.

[Strike]

I agree, sneakers should be more like a scouts and not some killing machines. I also like current armor+weapon sneak penalties, but maybe they should add "SMG" category for weapon penalties?

Ghost is useless, but Kilgore told last time that there won't be changes for it. Silent Running, I think there should be higher requirements for it.

[Wind_Drift]

I agree, sneakers should be scouts and not some killing machines. I also like current armor+weapon sneak penalties, but maybe they should add "SMG" category for weapon penalties?

Ghost is useless, but Kilgore told last time that there won't be changes for it. Silent Running, I think there should be higher requirements for it.

The thing is I can stand 30 hexes behind or to the side of you with an LSW in my inventory and then put it in my hand and nail you... the penalty doesn't matter, no one is dumb enough to run around with it in a hand slot.

I did this to a sniper in Reno the other day, crit for 306 with an LSW. It was retarded. Even worse, same mechanics apply to any BG including Bozar. That's just too much, if there is to be a weapon penalty it should count for your whole inventory (like active explosives penalty), not just the hand slots. JMHO

[Blix]

I agree, sneakers should be scouts and not some killing machines. I also like current armor+weapon sneak penalties, but maybe they should add "SMG" category for weapon penalties?

Ghost is useless, but Kilgore told last time that there won't be changes for it. Silent Running, I think there should be higher requirements for it.

The thing is I can stand 30 hexes behind or to the side of you with an LSW in my inventory and then put it in my hand and nail you... the penalty doesn't matter, no one is dumb enough to run around with it in a hand slot.

I did this to a sniper in Reno the other day, crit for 306 with an LSW. It was retarded. Even worse, same mechanics apply to any BG including Bozar. That's just too much, if there is to be a weapon penalty it should count for your whole inventory (like active explosives penalty), not just the hand slots. JMHO

But then you couldn't loot your kills.
Just fix the exploit I say, make it automatically unsneak once you put a BG in your hand, both first and second.

[Wind_Drift]

That would work, too. There is no one singular answer to anything, just spitballing.

[Blarney]

Yeah once that exploit gets a fix or workaround I'd say the weapons will be okay at least. And a penalty for items in inventory isn't the worst idea, you probably shouldn't be able to mass loot as a sneaker, or if you do, you should be running for safety after looting (with impaired sneak).

I don't see why there would be the need to restrict more of sneakers weapon choices though, the one handed weapons rule is pretty good for what they are trying to achieve (with the exception of gauss pistol which kind of breaks the theme with its OP range etc). I would like to see other choices for sneakers become available to be honest, I don't like the idea of sneakers being relegated to scouting only, then the only characters using sneak will be scout alts, that's no fun.

Maybe a few weapons designed/redesigned for sneaking in mind specifically wouldn't go astray? I mean they should really have decent weapons (and rare great weapons) considering they are sacrificing a lot of armor, but obviously one-shotting people, heavy weapons and extreme range weapons should be out of the question for sneaks.

I like the current armor requirements and penalties. I hear we will have special sneaker armor of some sort. How that will work I don't know.

Sneak requires very few perks. Ghost is useless, Silent Death is optional, and Silent Running is too easy to get before level 29 since it requires only 100 skill.
Stealth boys are also useless, as is Stealth Girl perk, since once you hit 300 sneak they give no real benefit.

At the moment sneaks are more predatory than scouts IMO.

New armor sounds awesome

I agree that some of the stealth perks and items are useless for certain builds (though would a stealthboy negate the penalty for holding a rifle? Because that could be useful).

Sneaking in combat should be predatory unless your prey has huge sight range, a motion detector or sneaking friends, in either case you are mostly out of luck. Sneaking just for scouting sake doesn't intrigue me at all, though I'm sure there are plenty of dualloggers who only use it for that. :\

There are enough natural "counters" to sneak and even a sneak countering specific item that literally anyone can use, I don't see why they need such heavy leashes in all cases (unless 90% of players are PE 1, then I can see why there'd be hate )

[Wind_Drift]

I'm not saying sneaks should only be scouts, I'm saying right now they're weighted far too heavily in the other direction. Somewhere in the middle would be nice.

[Blarney]

I guess it's arguable that the skillful side to sneak is getting very close without being seen, so perhaps that kind of play should be rewarded, if the range of your target can be used as a variable for calculating crit chance or damage for example I.E. the closer you sneak up on someone without being seen the more damage or better crit you will deal on that first shot, so say if silent death worked like that instead of simply from behind, silent death would become a must have for good sneakers and you could boost its requirements as a result, making only dedicated sneakers able to get access to it.

[Troll]

1- I think sneaking shouldn't be possible during combat timer.
2- They need to be easyer to spot (from front), 3 hexes is bullshit, the guy just hex you.
3- Sneaking should require more skill (for the player I mean), making the sneaker easy to spot when running too close, walking should be used (who runs toward ennemi when sneaking anyway? the closer you get the slower you move).
4- Sneakers should stay undetected as long as they are behind a target and walking (with max skill). Making melee sneak a good option. Walking from behind and hit the guy with a reaper.
5- Staying still should leave you invisible on motion sensor (because, yeah, it's a MOTION sensor, no motion, no detection)
6- Penalty from 2 handed weapons should be lowered for sniper rifle (at the cost of a perk maybe)
7- Cap sneak at 250 (with increased and more average efficiency). Below 250 sneak, you are almost always visible, the points between 250 and 300 make the difference. Reaching 300 when you don't have 8-10 INT is a pain in the ass for the players not using slave mining/autoclicking.

[Blarney]

1. Agreed
2. It should be dependent on sight range and skill level (as I'm sure it already is).
3. I dont agree here, that kind of defeats the purpose of silent running.
4. Being invisible through walls would be cool, but probably OP and abuse-able.
5. while being undetectable while not moving makes sense, having a benefit for not moving might encourage dual logged spys etc. But I agree that is how it should work, it should also detect someone walking less easily, say from 7 hexes instead.
6. While i would love to have a sniper rifle on my sneaker I can see why they have "nerfed" the ability for sneaks to do so, maybe a sneaker specific rifle for both SG and EW would be nice though.
7. I think it should be difficult to get high sneak, if you want a sneaker you should need INT (as it is the only stat for skill points) that is one of the sacrifices involved in being a sneaker.

I really think scaling it out so that only someone with 6-7 or more int can get to max sneak if they concentrate on it very heavily in the first 24 levels, then cutting off the ability to increase sneak past 200 at level 24, so you end up with specialised sneakers, and everyone else can still boost sneak, just not to perfection.

[triqua]

Well if you have an alt with 10pe + sharpshooter you detect a sneaker at front of you at 18 hexes distance. this is quite balanced imo. a sneaker is the best choice for taking out snipers.. and snipers shouldnt be out in the wild alone either. otherwise you mostly can do shit as a sneaker  when enemies team up and dont do bullshit. same for snipers. both fulfill their role quite good.

if you want to weaken sneakers maybe make them need one more perk like u can raise sneak with skillpoints only up to 250. and you can bypass the cap only with another perk.

[Blarney]

Well if you have an alt with 10pe + sharpshooter you detect a sneaker at front of you at 18 hexes distance. this is quite balanced imo. a sneaker is the best choice for taking out snipers.. and snipers shouldnt be out in the wild alone either. otherwise you mostly can do shit as a sneaker  when enemies team up and dont do bullshit. same for snipers. both fulfill their role quite good.

if you want to weaken sneakers maybe make them need one more perk like u can raise sneak with skillpoints only up to 250. and you can bypass the cap only with another perk.

I'm starting to agree that sneakers should have a 2 perk minimum to be optimal. Your suggestion would certainly do that, as long as only the perk can take you into 300, not stealthboys etc.

But even if that perk (ghost would be perfect as a replacement) did exist, some builds may also need silent death, which really strains their choices. 2 perks is a worthy sacrifice for being partially visible, but 3 seems too much.

[Strike]

I'm starting to agree that sneakers should have a 2 perk minimum to be optimal. Your suggestion would certainly do that, as long as only the perk can take you into 300, not stealthboys etc.

Kilgore told in some post, that sneaking will be item depend skill (or something like that)

Silent Running is awesome perk for sneakers, but everyone is able to take it (requirement is just 100% sneak, and no SPECIAL requirements) and almost everyone can become sneaker, which is stupid.

+1 for reworked Ghost perk.

Anyway, most of sneaking changes will be for PvP and I don't really mind that (in some point there was a lot arguments about sneaking in PvP and Kilgore started took action), I have totally different usage for it.

[Troll]

I like the idee of a reworked ghost perk giving +50 sneak skill allowing to bypass a 250 cap. That makes you take an additionnal perk and get's you char ready sooner.
But having high perception isn't really a protection against sneakers, as sniper are mostly paperbuilds easy to kill on range with 3 p90 bursts, if not 2.