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Topic: Reloading the traits  (Read 1962 times)

Admiral Zombie

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Reloading the traits
« on: July 09, 2014, 04:26:07 am »
Many of the traits are rather useless, in part due to the unlimited levels bit which invalidates or makes trivial a few of them, or the ease of storage or alternate characters which invalidates several others.

Plus I'm interested to see what kind of differences people can come up with if some of the traits were significantly changed in general. I love having a variety of fighting styles, I hate when everyone out there is the same cookie cutter build.

I'll post the suggested trait and idea, and then in a spoiler tag following that will be my reasoning/opinions

Skilled- (rename to Gifted?)
* You gain 7 SPECIAL points to distribute as you choose (essentially +1 to each special)
* New perks available every 4 levels instead of the regular 3
Spoiler: show
As it is now skilled is a useless trait and would be replaced entirely by this. There is never a time when skill points is worth more than perks. As far as I know, it is a trait used exclusively for crafter alts to get the desired skill point levels as fast as possible. This would be a very interesting trait, and probably not picked up quite so often considering how valuable perks are. However the idea of a much higher endurance, perception, agility AND luck might tempt some if they're willing to drop some of their perks. It would be interesting option to test/experiment with at least.

Oh and to be honest I did in fact get this idea from the fallout wiki mentioning the gifted trait for the J.E. Sawyer Fallout RPG


Small Frame
* +1 to agility
*  Your Limbs are more easily crippled (+10% [5%?] critical rolls and/or critical chance to arms/legs attacks)
* OR All critical hits against the legs will knock you down
* OR Critical hits in general have a slightly higher knockdown chance (attacks that would knock you down occur one critical category lower on the critical roll table)
Spoiler: show
I'm a little worried that the penalties are a little strong, but agility and AP are so very important that it is important to have an equally debilitating penalty as the bonus. In singleplayer fallout the penalty to carry weight is very troublesome since players are expected to carry around a lot more stuff on their person than fonline. But even then it was an easy pick since players typically got the car, and had multiple followers. Its even worse in fonline considering players typically carry as little as they can possibly manage, and looting a ton of stuff isn't as important as it use to be (especially later into the season as munition stockpiles begin to skyrocket). And finally it doesn't really add a significant penalty that alters how players try and play while fighting, it just adds tedium of inventory management slightly.


Kamikaze
* Reloading weapons does not require an animation (run and reload at the same time in real time combat!)
* -10 (15?) DR (And maybe -15AC as well)
Spoiler: show
I'm not even sure if this is possible to code. Or if it is acceptable to have a trait that is effectively only useful for real time. It might be worth having the quick pockets perk wrapped in with a reduction to 1ap to make it somewhat useful for turn based if it is really necessary to make such concessions. Being able to move and reload is already really powerful I think though, so I don't think that is necessary personally.

I particularly like the idea of this trait, as it significantly changes the way players can play. It is easier to use hit and run strategies, or to keep chasing a target without having to worry about reloading to keep attacking. At the same time survival is extremely important, and it becomes a tradeoff of defense for mobility. It gives way more incentive to get the quick pockets perk as well I think


One Hander
*  Aimed and burst attacks with 1 handed weapons costs -1AP when the off hand is empty
* Aimed and burst attacks with 2 handed weapons costs +1AP.

Spoiler: show
This one is a bit more difficult. I wanted to come up with something that allows for some change in play style, that can be actually useful in certain circumstances. With the unlimited level bit, and overall lack of need for skill points in general, it is too easy to get the necessary skillpoints to have 100% chance to hit.

Not particularly keen on this suggested change myself. It is better than the current trait definitely, but it is hugely dependent on the current idea for next wipe that weapons cannot be crafted with -1AP anymore. The power of -1AP grows exponentially stronger the more of them a player can accumulate. If there are still readily available, or even available at all weapons which can have -1AP then I would strongly advise against the first suggestion for balance reasons.

I think it is important to require the off hand being empty. It would be too easy to use up the clip of one gun, and just swap to the other gun. There needs to be a few restrictions, and it makes some sense (I see the second item slot being the second hand, or dual wielding)

I might come back later and post some alternate suggestions to this one if I can come up with something else


That's it for alteration of existing perks. There are a few other perks though that I think should be dropped and replaced entirely. Good natured, bloody mess, bruiser, loner, and maybe one hander would be good fits for replacement entirely I think. I'll come back another time and try posting some wholly unique traits...or just blatantly steal and modify some different ones from other fallout games.

"Good artists borrow, Great artists steal"
« Last Edit: July 09, 2014, 02:02:15 pm by Admiral Zombie »

Daemyn Sterk

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Re: Reloading the traits
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2014, 05:36:15 am »
I think a re-haul of the traits is in order, and you seem to have some very interesting ideas. Though, my only problem is the gifted one. +7 seems like too huge of a bonus, even with the perk every four levels. Perhaps it could be lowered to a set amount, like somewhere between 2-4 special points in any skill you wish? I'm not sure, but +7 just seems a bit too much.

duh7

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Re: Reloading the traits
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2014, 08:53:09 am »
1+ to all ideas
I think Kamikaze shuld give a bonus to movement speed to and meaby some AC we all know that AC will be restored.
Kamikaze shuld get in my opinion:
+ 10 % movment speed
Reloading cost for all wepons is 0
DR -10 %

BB.

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Re: Reloading the traits
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2014, 11:25:48 am »
Yeah, it would be nice to have more interesting traits, because now a few are strong and others are just "meh". But not like you think it should be.

* You gain 7 SPECIAL points to distribute as you choose (essentially +1 to each special)
OP

* OR All critical hits against the legs will knock you down
Stupid. xd It would make this trait totally useless. Not mentioning it gives +1 and a penalty and you want make other trait give +7 barely without penalties.

Critical hits in general have a slightly higher knockdown chance
It's already like this. Small frame = more successful knockdowns and knockouts on your character.

Kamikaze
It used to give +5 to sequence. Now it's reworked to use AC engine and I think it's fine.

Admiral Zombie

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Re: Reloading the traits
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2014, 02:06:31 pm »
I'm a little surprised people think the gifted one is OP. As it is now most PvP builds seem to often have 1charisma, and 1-2 intelligence. I think I read someone saying really low strength considering it is easy to just level up through crafting enough that you get the stat to 300%

So then it becomes ridiculously easy to get max agility, luck, and endurance. Perception being the determining factor in how much else you want of the other set.

Being short 2 perks is rather huge I think. People would actually have to decide if they want to drop their toughness set, their critical hit chance set, bonus ranged damage set, action boy set, lifegivers, etc. And the gains of higher special doesn't make that significant of a difference. If anything my thought was this trait wasn't strong enough because it was so easy to skimp on certain SPECIAL in the current system.

If there were perks with higher special requirements, then this trait would probably be worth it for some builds. As it is now it is overly easy to reach the requirements of most of the perks. If it were implemented in the current system then I don't think I would take it myself to be honest.


And whats this about small frame already having a higher knockdown chance? Where are you getting that?

BB.

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Re: Reloading the traits
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2014, 04:31:05 pm »
I think I read someone saying really low strength considering it is easy to just level up through crafting enough that you get the stat to 300%
Low strenght can save you some points you can spare better way. But having it 1 or 2 makes you suffer from more weapon drops = is not good for PvP character.

So then it becomes ridiculously easy to get max agility, luck, and endurance. Perception being the determining factor in how much else you want of the other set.
You can’t have these 3 maxed in the same time and still be a versatile/good character. Of course 10 AG and 10 EN is must be for a first-line PvP character and 10 LK for a sniper.

+1 to each of SPECIAL points IS a big deal. Now to make any character you have to deal with it’s drawbacks. You wouldn’t need if you could just take a trait giving you 5 useful points. Example: it would be able to make a stonewall tank with high luck and still high perception: 5+1 9+1 9+1 1+1 1(bonehead)+1 9+1 4+1 = 6 10 10 2 2 10 5 (if you think 5 luck is not enough just drop some perception as you’re not a sniper anyways). Fucking OP, man.

And whats this about small frame already having a higher knockdown chance? Where are you getting that?
Game engine. Don't rely completely on wiki, it lacks much information.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2014, 04:32:39 pm by BB. »

Wipe

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Re: Reloading the traits
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2014, 06:01:10 pm »
And whats this about small frame already having a higher knockdown chance? Where are you getting that?
Game engine. Don't rely completely on wiki, it lacks much information.
That's interesting, becouse engine does not handle any traits mechanics at all. In fact, none of traits is even defined there. Not in latest SDK version, not in version currently used on Reloaded.

Either you have your info from few years back (when such stuff was really handled by engine, among other things), or you talk random nonsense.

tl;dr - Don't rely completely on BB., she/he lacks much information

Spoiler: show

And for future "it's in engine!" talks, here's a list of all perks which have (full or only partial) mechanics buried down in engine.

PE_SILENT_RUNNING
PE_MASTER_TRADER
PE_QUICK_POCKETS
« Last Edit: July 09, 2014, 06:14:12 pm by Wipe »
Games are meant to be created, not played...


Admiral Zombie

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Re: Reloading the traits
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2014, 11:39:08 pm »
Quote
Game engine. Don't rely completely on wiki, it lacks much information.

Under character registration, it says it is a reduction in carry weight in text, and shows a change in number. Both of the character planners also specifically show/mention reduction in carry weight while never mentioning knockdown. Going through the changelog doesn't mention anything about small frame as well.

Can you get a more specific citation?

Quote
Stuff about gifted

The current system allows for 8 perks, 6 if you have skilled (or the proposed gifted)

Using your example of a tanky character having less drawbacks, a tank character typically probably have the following perks.

Adrenaline Rush (3)
Toughness (6)
Even Tougher (9)
Lifegiver (12)
Lifegiver+ (15)
Lifegiver++ (18)
Man of Steel (21)
Stonewall (24)

And in all likelihood the tank has already taken small frame and bonehead, which for the most part cancel each other out in terms of total SPECIAL. Which of these perks would the tank drop? Because they're all pretty big important perks. First perk comes at level 4, and Adrenaline rush is the only the only perk you can viably choose from so you can't just drop that. From 8 on you would have roughly the same options but would have to make some cuts somewhere.

Maybe there are some build potentials that would be better. But thats kind of the point to a certain degree, to allow for a greater diversity of builds and play styles. I think you chose the absolutely worst example of tank characters though, since they rely so heavily on their perks. I think it would be easier to have more AP or more strength which would help with stonewall, or luck which I think helps with criticals maybe. But at a huge sacrifice of incredibly important perks.

It actually means a tradeoff, you're stronger in some areas but weaker in others. JUST AS A TRAIT SHOULD BE.


Are there any comments about the other suggested traits though? I don't think faster "run speed" is a good alternative to kamikaze, and I'm really unsure about the idea of being able to reload while moving, assuming it is even possible to code into the game by eliminating the animation or something. It still seems weak since you would have to stand still to regain AP to reload, and overall I'm not sure if anyone would ever grab it. It might be useful on some weird solo builds, but I don't see it changing much else.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2014, 11:43:31 pm by Admiral Zombie »

Darksider

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Re: Reloading the traits
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2014, 06:36:07 am »
Skilled- (rename to Gifted?)
* You gain 7 SPECIAL points to distribute as you choose (essentially +1 to each special)
* New perks available every 4 levels instead of the regular 3
7 spoecials for 2 perks - hmmm It could be good because perks are much more valuable

Small Frame
* +1 to agility
*  Your Limbs are more easily crippled (+10% [5%?] critical rolls and/or critical chance to arms/legs attacks)
* OR All critical hits against the legs will knock you down
* OR Critical hits in general have a slightly higher knockdown chance (attacks that would knock you down occur one critical category lower on the critical roll table)
Nice idea, what you think abut reworked bruiser? -1AGI and bonuses to resistances similar to that you wrote. Finally bruiser will be usefull trait.

Kamikaze
* Reloading weapons does not require an animation (run and reload at the same time in real time combat!)
* -10 (15?) DR (And maybe -15AC as well)
I dont like the idea. In my opinion Kamikaze trait shouldnt cointaind reload bonuses. Kamikaze is more like kill fast but die fast also.

One Hander
*  Aimed and burst attacks with 1 handed weapons costs -1AP when the off hand is empty
* Aimed and burst attacks with 2 handed weapons costs +1AP.

i dont have opinion.

Kilgore

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Re: Reloading the traits
« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2014, 11:37:10 am »
Only minor changes to few traits are planned with this wipe.

And whats this about small frame already having a higher knockdown chance? Where are you getting that?
Game engine. Don't rely completely on wiki, it lacks much information.
This is bullshit, I'm wondering where did you get that "info" about Small Frame. It doesn't affect anything in PvP.
Don't spread misinformation.