The attitude of PvE players towards PvP

[Nice_Boat]

I have created this thread because I've noticed that group PvP has been virtually monopolized by a limited number of experienced teams that had years to hone their tactics and recruit their members on 2238. Kudos to ARWH for bringing in a breath of fresh air, we miss your players on TC, come back :3

Anyway, I've been wondering what's keeping PvE players from joining the battles in the north. Town Control is a great feature that makes this game truly unique and I think they're missing quite a lot of the fun that you can get out of playing this game. I'd appreciate it if some of you, PvE players, told us what exactly is preventing you from doing what we do. That way, we could probably work out a solution as a community (preferably without any dev intervention) so that more teams will be able to fight, enjoy the game and make it more interesting and social for everyone... because trust me, you'll have more interaction with the other players in a PvP gang than in any Radscorpion/Enclave hunting squad.

My assumption would be that many people would love to try PvP, but can't do so because:
- they fear of losing their equipment
- they assume they can't compete with the leading gangs and they simply give up because building a strong group is too hard.

I'd like to hear what could help you in overcoming these odds - guides, direct help, coaching, something else? Let's discuss this issue, because I feel like it's starting to divide the playerbase into two separate worlds that rarely interact with one another and I'd hate to see that happen again.

[Top-Hat]

>Spend half an hour gathering materials for weapons, ammunition, and other goods.
>Lose it in two seconds during PvP because of a AP whoring Big Guns character with Life Giver x2.

[Nice_Boat]

>Spend half an hour gathering materials for weapons, ammunition, and other goods.
>Lose it in two seconds during PvP because of a AP whoring Big Guns character with Life Giver x2.

This isn't true. Most PvE players should be wealthy enough to afford private mines at this point, which means they should have access to a massive pool of resources. This means that you could have a day of farming/PvE and spend the rest of the week doing medium-intensity PvP without running out of stuff - and that's assuming you get killed a lot. I've been running on a single day of crafting for two weeks now, there's no reason why other players can't do it too.

The point I'm trying to make is that some of the barriers aren't even real, they're simple misconceptions. On the other hand, some problems are probably very real - but perhaps we could work around them to create a working solution that would enable new fighters to enter the fray.

[Top-Hat]

Doesn't change much. Even if I had a steady supply of materials I wouldn't go around losing it all. I dislike playing with people who boast about their 'builds' or 'how good they are' anyways (Pretty much every PvP player I've ever met, I mean look at BBS).

[Nice_Boat]

Well, if you dislike competitive play in general, there's no helping it, nobody's going to force your hand after all. However, I think there are many people that would like to try, but there's something stopping them - I'm more interested in their opinions.

Besides, you might want to reconsider - I mean you'll lose resources if you PvP regardless of how good you are, but the game allows you to run on a very limited amount of supplies for days and the teamplay alone really makes it worth checking out.

And just to make it 100% clear, I mean no disrespect to players who want to focus strictly on PvE - this game will probably accommodate your playstyle too once the dungeon updates start rolling out.

[Henry]

I just want to say i love this thread. I think this topic is very important and i really admire your approach to it. Nice_Boat, thank you for starting this!

I do only PvE but not by choice. In some cases (like with me) it has to do with when we log in. When some of us log in, most have logged out, leaving very few active players in-game. I get in IRC and find a few guys but most are silent. I don't expect this can change easily - just need tons more people to discover this game.

Additionally, i think your two guesses are certainly accurate for most of us; i don't want to lose gear in 3 seconds, and i am sure my fighters are less than optimal, creating a no-win scenario against the seasons vets. So yes i want to PvP, but until i can i do enjoy getting ready. I have figured out a good way to hunt lockers so i have some good blueprints (including CA). I power-mine for 2 straight hours sometimes. I think i have almost 1000 Rot Guts lol. I have 35 Safe Houses shared between all 4 of my characters so far, and 1 Outpost where i keep all my maps. I guess about 350k caps (which took me a long time solo). I am organized. I feel like i'm doing well but...

I would need help from a vet to get some optimal fighter builds going. I'm more than willing to level them and provide all my own gear. I don't need access to anyone's bases either. So please count me as a PvP-willing player who just can't do PvP yet.

Oh also, i know some players refuse to do voice chat. Voice chat is however mandatory for most (if not all) serious teams. I will do it but some won't.

[S.T.A.L.K.E.R]

Well, who's gonna farm SS for the PvP gangs???

other: I don't have gang to PvP with

2nd: If I try to go rambo, I get raped by sniper, some sneaker, 3 BG tanks, other sniper, some guy with Rocket launcher, etc.

like henry said, I refuse to voice chat

[Ryvaeus]

Hi Nice_Boat,

I don't post on forums much - prefer to read and lurk and get what information I need on my own, without stirring things up too much. Your post asking for input is one of the most earnest and honest I've read, though, so I'll pop out of the shadows for this one.

I've been a long-time FOnline player, mostly on the old 2238 server, a bit of other small servers, and most recently here on Reloaded. Each time, it was purely for PvE experience. It's not really because I'm a non-competitive player (I do enjoy other online games which are designed around competition); it's mainly because the way I enjoy FOnline is by playing as part of a group of friends just trying to survive the wastes. It's easier and more immersing to do this in PvE than it is in PvP.

Yes, the wasteland is harsh. But that's why I play with a small group of trusted friends. More people means more complications, and while I'm sure Town Control is a great experience for those predisposed to it, I perceive it to take too much control away from me. I'm already worried enough as it is about random encounters on the world map and wandering in to another player or vice versa.

My understanding of it also includes the idea that min-maxing is necessary to be successful in PvP. I simply don't have the time, the desire, nor the math skills to tweak a character to statistical perfection. Gearing up is another thing entirely; it's acceptable that I'll lose my equipment and inventory upon death, that's why we should make use of the banks and tents/bases. But to walk into a battle carrying your best gear while being aware that your chances of survival are slim to none? That just seems like a lot of stress.

I guess, in short, I feel like PvP goes against what I expect out of my FOnline experience. Having a job and family, I don't get a lot of time to play games. FOnline scratches that itch of wanting to play a Fallout-like game with a group of like-minded friends, and we get the most fun out of it when cruising around in the relatively relaxed PvE mode.

Now, what would make me more open to PvP/Town Control? Here are a couple ideas.

First is to follow the Guild Wars route of offering an entirely separate PvP character creation option. I don't have to work my way up to max level, I can tweak my character exactly the way I want, and I get to jump into PvP right away without worrying about messing up. It's a consequence-free way to offer the full PvP experience of competing via player skill, tactics, reflexes, and other non-mechanical traits. After all, that's the core of PvP, right? You're fully satisfied - even if you lose - when you know you and your enemy were fighting on equal terms, and that if you mess up, it was because of a mistake you had full control over. Not because of some stupid thing like your gun jamming in the middle of the fight, or your opponent's armor having +1 more AC than yours.

Second is if we suffered no gear loss for dying in PvP. This is much more controversial and I don't think the idea would fly with many (or any) of the current PvP players, but if I'm not into hardcore PvP anyway, I don't want my unoptimized, undergeared, underleveled character losing everything he has when he's sure to die when I participate in PvP. The barrier to entry is quite high in that regard, and it feels like - even if I tried making a dedicated PvP character - I'll just be bullied around.

Hope this helps!

PS. As I was typing this out, I realized I hadn't mentioned at all the fact that my friends and I live in Southeast Asia. Our pings measured between 300-500ms in 2238, we haven't measured how bad it gets with Reloaded but for sure there's going to be noticeable delay. That, coupled with time zone differences, make it less than ideal to play PvP even if we wanted to.

[Letoo]

One of the reasons is that I'm a trader at heart and staying neutral helps with that. Another thing is that most of TC factions don't just stick to TC fights (we had a bite of that at the mutants event), their playstyle is being an ass and murdering people for gain which just doesn't work for me. I play as I feel, trying to be decent and killing only when necessary or deserved. Even though I can imagine participating in event-raping isn't mandatory for every member (compared to TC which probably is) I wouldn't like to be associated with such a group.

Having that said, I just finished a pvp character and I will give it a try, but knowing BBS's playstyle we won't meet at the same side, it just doesn't work for me.

[Furior]

No pvp can be done by groups of noobs. They may try once, but no more. The current PvP players do not give a chance. Ill give you an example. I go alone looking for PvP and find 1 guy, I killed him, Ok. 5 Min laters, the same guy I killed and 3 more rushed me. Whats wrong with you? Why PvP players cannot be fair?

To make TC you need at least 8 players, non-pvp groups arent so big (3-5 people moreless?). Then we have another problem, if you try to make a group and recruit new ppl, they will rape your base...

Next problem is that many ppl who dont do PvP are Noobs who eventually try PvP with their unlvled-shitty builds (BG+Finesse, 9 St sniper,etc...) and without the proper gear and got raped instantly. So they start thinking they dont have any chance and give up.

Also, when I try something I usually have to leave becuase the militia is there, and they cant be killed with a crit build and thats what I use.

One thing Id really like but will never happen(cannot be done): Small teams, 6 players maximum. Not allowing teams to be bigger than that. Battles would be awesome, much more teams to make pvp. Maybe 3,4,5 teams fighting in the same town. And players would play a bigger role in the team, when you are 15 ppl fight it doesnt really matter what 1 person do.

Nice post btw.

[Andr3aZ]

Not yet leveled my ape-char.

But thats the main issue for me, don't like leveling at all. My main char Andr3aZ is a mix out of Crafting and SG.
And thats basically my fonline life. Was on 2238, same on reloaded. I go around exploring/scavengeing, kill npcs, loot stuff, mine, craft, trade, stay out of trouble. I have fun at that and the leveling occurs automatically.

With a pvp char i have to grind encs, and i really don't like that.

I know that with no hard-cap on lvl any PVP Char can have 100 Repair and 100 Science, but it obviously takes long, as you wont give your PVP char higher int - which brings me back to the disliked leveling. Also, if you want to level a PVP char with crafting, you have to boost repair or science and with the lack of skillpoints in your weapon skills, you might miss perks.

[what]

In a balanced server there should be plenty of things to do if you're PvE or if you're PvP or even if you are hybrid in your play style.

Private PvE missions for those who want it, ala TLA MK2s Den, Navarro missions (I'm not saying that's enough because it's not, the more the more varied and interested the game becomes)

TC is ok for PvP, but that's all there is at the moment, the WM encounter rate is really, really low for reasons unknown to me. PvP on this server is boring after you do a bit of it for a week straight up. No variation yet again.

No hybrids for those inclined exist as of yet, Dungeons will be a welcome introduction but there needs to be more.

And i am sure plenty of people would like to work on new maps or features or help others working on something, but i've seen no formal request for help or any of these things so we are just at the mercy of the GMs workflow and time available. It all seems very closed off, and yes i'm aware there is a suggestion forum but that's all it is...suggestions, nothing proactive for those who want to be proactive.

Basically this server needs to find a bigger team and find some features that make it truly the best FOnline iteration to date while trying to retain all the best features from the older or no longer active servers, because there is no need to try and re-invent the wheel when the work has already been done before to some degree. And that there is the pitfall this game suffers over and over again, you got to ask if you really want this to be the best FOnline to date or not, because if you do, fucking do it. If you don't, make it known to the players so they don't waste their time.

[gh0un]

I have created this thread because I've noticed that group PvP has been virtually monopolized by a limited number of experienced teams that had years to hone their tactics and recruit their members on 2238. Kudos to ARWH for bringing in a breath of fresh air, we miss your players on TC, come back :3

Anyway, I've been wondering what's keeping PvE players from joining the battles in the north. Town Control is a great feature that makes this game truly unique and I think they're missing quite a lot of the fun that you can get out of playing this game.

We got a small faction consisting of 3 players. We would love to participate in TC, but the problem is we dont have enough manpower.
Recruiting new people is almost impossible in this game because you cannot trust a single person.
Participating in TC with only 3 players will just lead to all of us dying, losing our improved gear (which we spent hours on creating), and then ragequitting the game forever because we will blame it on the missing manpower.

On top of that you cannot even start TC without 5 players, which doesnt help either.
The game discourages people from doing low manpower PvP. 3 will never win against 5.
Its either have enough manpower, or fuck you. The game fucks all the small factions in the ass due to this rule.
If gear was easier to create we would probably still visit towns that are being TCed, but as is, we are farming several hours, crafting several hours for improved gear, if we can lose it in a minute or two by going up against faction that has many more players than us (meaning we will definitely lose) we are just dooming ourselves to even more farm time.

[3.14]

1. RT.
At best I can describe realtime combat as akward. The frantic clicking all over the place while fighting zoom because the camera got stuck, watching my character lag-moonwalk, cycling weapon mods that changed to burst after reloading when you want to make an aimed shot -no, just no. It's a bit harder for me then for most other players because I can only use a trackball. The only time I use RT is when using my sneaker - it's always over after two shots, if she didn't kill in 2 shots she's dead (low hp, leather armor or jacket).

2. Voice chat.
I don't own a mic and I want to keep it that way.

3. Not a fair fight.   
I don't play that much and I don't have 500 sets of armor/gun/ammo/drugs in every tent, but I expect TC players have. If I die and drop my gear I lose 10% of everything I've got.
I can come with a crafted pistol and used CA, others will come with gaus rifles, implants and power armor.
Teams can have any number of players, 5vs 15 is not ok... and there's militia and mercs.

4. Rock, paper, minigun.
I've only seen movies but it looks like you need to have an avenger tank or a bazooka tank build to win. I don't like the BG play style and I don't like clone wars ( well the Genndy Tartakovsky version was ok)       

5. Reward.
Owning a town gives some random, mediocre items (+lotto-win-łow chance for PA?) and a option to abuse militia. Yay? That's it? Why would I want that?

6. The people
I know it's not fair to say that all TC players are complete and utter d*ckheads, but some are and they are making a fine job of busting the reputation for others. 

I don't see myself in TC, maybe some other team pvp mode would be nice? One with ad hoc teams, where everybody starts with no gear and there are no npc? Like domination - you need to take control of mines and crafting stations to make weapons and armor for your team to kill the other team.

[Letoo]

@3.141592 Noone will come with Gauss/PA to TC, because it's too much to lose. The common gear are CA Mk2 that are easily farmable and weapons that you can easily craft.