HtH changes

[Strike]

HtH suggestions

- Melee Damage to effect both min and max damage (All servers use it only that max damage get boost, not min damage)
- More Criticals work like on certain server -> 2 ranks and +8% to critical change.
- Maybe some little boost to Melee Damage? (10ST -> 6-8 Melee Damage etc, just little boost)
- Bruiser works like on 2238? (+4 ST, -2AP and more Melee Damage?)
- Toughness like on certain server -> 2 ranks and +8% protection to all types of attacks.
- Unarmed and Melee skills as one skill -> Close Combat
- Maybe some jobs to HtH players? Like earn caps and EXP with boxing.

[drot]

- Melee Damage to effect both min and max damage (All servers use it only that max damage get boost, not min damage)

Mkay.

- More Criticals work like on FOnline2 -> 2 ranks and +8% to critical change.

We already have HtH criticals for that and even better it's only a one perk which gives additional 15% chance, so nothing to be done there.

- Maybe some little boost to Melee Damage? (10ST -> 6-8 Melee Damage etc, just little boost)

Mkay.

- Bruiser works like on 2238? (+4 ST, -2AP and more Melee Damage?)

It works the same.

- Toughness like on FOnline2 -> 2 ranks and +8% protection to all types of attacks.

This works the same for any build so it's not really a HtH issue.

- Unarmed and Melee skills as one skill -> Close Combat

Absolutely this.

- Maybe some jobs to HtH players? Like earn caps and EXP with boxing.

Mkay.

[Kilgore]

1 Melee Damage to effect both min and max damage (All servers use it only that max damage get boost, not min damage)
2 More Criticals work like on FOnline2 -> 2 ranks and +8% to critical change.
3 Maybe some little boost to Melee Damage? (10ST -> 6-8 Melee Damage etc, just little boost)
4 Bruiser works like on 2238? (+4 ST, -2AP and more Melee Damage?)
5 Toughness like on FOnline2 -> 2 ranks and +8% protection to all types of attacks.
6 Unarmed and Melee skills as one skill -> Close Combat
7 Maybe some jobs to HtH players? Like earn caps and EXP with boxing.

1. Yep, sounds reasonable.
2. This would affect all builds, so I say no.
3. We'll consider it.
4. Yep: http://www.fonline-reloaded.net/wiki/index.php?title=Bruiser
5. Wait for info about implants
6. Yes, I think it is reasonable, so it's likely we'll do it.
7. There are plenty of ways to earn caps and exp.

Thanks for suggestion, I like reading something like this instead of simple "do sth with hth".

[Xeen]

It would be also nice to give a different effect to swing and thrust attack mode. For example: In case of thrust make a probability of bleeding which will drain hp or ap from the target, while switched to swing,   additional damage could be dealt.
I think the bonus hth damage perks are pretty useless, since all that matters is getting close and deal a critical hit (knockdown, knockout, cripple, blind target). I see the only benefit of increasing hth damage in case of using heavy handed character equipped with mega power fist. But also there the small boost wont do much difference anyway.
Im also for the merge of the two skills into one.
And one last thing, its just a thought,  what about slight passive bonuses while specializing (using) only knives/spears/hammers/prods, the more a specific weapon is used, the higher chance of dealing more damage or evade incoming attack, etc... in other words make the hth fighters more interesting, while not overpowering them.   

[drot]

Woah there buddy, Bonus HtH Damage+ gives a bonus to crit roll, only the first one gives bonus damage. Maybe they should be renamed as to prevent player confusion since they are different perks.

[kaincallavis]

HtH suggestions
- Melee Damage to effect both min and max damage (All servers use it only that max damage get boost, not min damage)
- More Criticals work like on FOnline2 -> 2 ranks and +8% to critical change.
- Maybe some little boost to Melee Damage? (10ST -> 6-8 Melee Damage etc, just little boost)
- Bruiser works like on 2238? (+4 ST, -2AP and more Melee Damage?)

A lot of these changes would enhance your typical "bluesuit barehanded fist fighter."
I know Kilgore wants to avoid making bluesuits stronger. They have little to no risk and only gain from their fighting in towns, or rez centers...
Try thinking of some suggestions that are only effective to geared players.

- Toughness like on FOnline2 -> 2 ranks and +8% protection to all types of attacks.

I disagree with that. The way weapons work just having 16% defense against normal damage is very little defense to waste 2 perks on; however, if you get both with the current system you end up with 5DT and 15% DR. That seems far more effective.
The only change that I think might make those perks more effective is if the 15% DR was to all types of attacks instead of just normal.

- Unarmed and Melee skills as one skill -> Close Combat
 

Neat idea. I like it.  But then that would be empowering the bluesuit a bit more.
Geared they would fight like a good melee skills fighter, but if they died and spawned at the rez center and ran into another fighter who died and is on their way back or whatever they could kill them more easily as a bluesuit/non geared fighter.
*In order to get melee combat of any kind you wouldn't require nearly as much INT to work the skills up.
Some people may argue, why not merge BG and SG skills? Which is just silly.

- Maybe some jobs to HtH players? Like earn caps and EXP with boxing.

Actually, I love that idea.
Special quests or side-jobs for hth players, Brawler, or bouncer, or boxing.
New Reno, Junk town, and San Fran all seem to have places that look good for boxing-type events...
-Kain

[drot]

Neat idea. I like it.  But then that would be empowering the bluesuit a bit more.
Geared they would fight like a good melee skills fighter, but if they died and spawned at the rez center and ran into another fighter who died and is on their way back or whatever they could kill them more easily as a bluesuit/non geared fighter.
*In order to get melee combat of any kind you wouldn't require nearly as much INT to work the skills up.
Some people may argue, why not merge BG and SG skills? Which is just silly.

Every build with ST higher than 1 can kill you at respawn easily don't worry about that (fun fact: you can get shot, stabbed or clubbed to death in SF respawn if your attacker has done the subway quest), and if I'm not mistaken respawn tents are no-pvp zones now (if something hasn't changed) so this is a moot point. And merging BG/SG would also make sense since they use conventional ammo (also it would follow Obsidian's decision.).

Now my suggestion, the complete removal of AC in favor of Evasion.

How it would work:

AC capped to 30, removal of the following perks:

- Livewire
- Dodger
- Dodger+

Changes to following traits:

- Kamikaze (10% damage bonus, -10% damage resistance)

Unarmed and Melee merged into Close Combat, new skill Evasion with the following mechanics:

- Capped to 200%
- At 200% gives 10% chance that your enemies will miss you
- HtH Evade gives additional 5% chance that your enemies will miss you
- HtH Evade+ gives additional 10 % chance that your enemies will miss you
- New perk, Transposition (requires 180% Close Combat and 200% Evasion), doubles your movement speed (for TB 1 AP to walk 4 hexes, for RT increased movement speed), can be taken at level 18
- In total 25% chance for your opponents to miss you while you're closing in on them, and once you get close In Your Face comes into play

Changes to HtH combat perks:

Currently we have the following perks:

- Bonus HtH Damage (gives bonus damage, as the name implies)
- Bonus HtH Damage+ (+15% crit chance)
- HtH Criticals (25% on crit roll, even better than Better Criticals)
- Hit the Gaps (was fixed in the last update)

What can be changed:

Bonus HtH Damage could get a damage boost, Bonus HtH Damage+ could be renamed as proposed earlier, HtH Criticals is fine as it is. Seriously, an average HtH builds scores more crits than a full-on sniper, the only problem is the lackluster damage output which will hopefully be corrected by boosting HtH weapons.

Conclusion:
Evasion might seem like a troll idea (you probably rolled your eyes reading this) but having in mind the incomplete AC feature of this game I think this is a better solution and it would be limited to builds which cannot compete at long ranges.

[kaincallavis]

Neat idea. I like it.  But then that would be empowering the bluesuit a bit more.
Geared they would fight like a good melee skills fighter, but if they died and spawned at the rez center and ran into another fighter who died and is on their way back or whatever they could kill them more easily as a bluesuit/non geared fighter.
*In order to get melee combat of any kind you wouldn't require nearly as much INT to work the skills up.
Some people may argue, why not merge BG and SG skills? Which is just silly.

.
.
.
- New perk, Transposition (requires 180% Close Combat and 200% Evasion), doubles your movement speed (for TB 1 AP to walk 4 hexes, for RT increased movement speed), can be taken at level 18
.
.
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Was not aware that the spawn areas became non-pvp zones, neat thanks for the info. Been a looooong time since I was on Fallout 2238 or the new Reloaded.

As for the new perk, I could easily see people (especially high int people) rushing close combat and evasion just for that crazy movement speed, then simply swapping to a ranged weapon skill even if it takes them well past level 24 to cap it.
The only way to fix that would be giving the perk a trait-like downside such as -200% in all ranged forms of combat when taking it.
But then I fear you would not be able to escape a HtH without killing them and with all that crit once they disable you, you cannot kill them... I fear that would make them a little too strong.
Maybe a 10 or 20% movement bonus would be more appropriate without making everyone rush to get it in their build and not make the HtH too overpowered.


Oh, for the record I do strongly agree that AC should be reworked since it is a useless stat.
Perhaps capping it at 30 and perhaps the dodger perks should revolve around increased chance to evade the attack would be a good step in the right direction.
-Kain

[drot]

The only way to fix that would be giving the perk a trait-like downside such as -200% in all ranged forms of combat when taking it.

Yes, it could return BG/SG/EW back to stock value and forbid increasing them further.

But then I fear you would not be able to escape a HtH without killing them and with all that crit once they disable you, you cannot kill them... I fear that would make them a little too strong.
Maybe a 10 or 20% movement bonus would be more appropriate without making everyone rush to get it in their build and not make the HtH too overpowered.

- HtH overpowered
- FOnline

Pick one and only one. As for movement speed and miss chance they could be tweaked a little, just wanted to get the idea out.

[Strike]

The only change that I think might make those perks more effective is if the 15% DR was to all types of attacks instead of just normal.

+1

[Kilgore]

Bonus HtH Damage could get a damage boost,

No, but weapons will be boosted instead.

Bonus HtH Damage+ could be renamed as proposed earlier,

Changed to "Bonus HtH Criticals". Still a bit confusing due to "HtH Criticals" perk, but I think it's better than it was.

the only problem is the lackluster damage output which will hopefully be corrected by boosting HtH weapons.

Yep.

Evasion might seem like a troll idea (you probably rolled your eyes reading this) but having in mind the incomplete AC feature of this game I think this is a better solution and it would be limited to builds which cannot compete at long ranges.

We'll merge Unarmed and Melee Weapons skills into Close Combat, but do not expect that we'll introduce a new skill and especially something like Evasion. That would be a big change to Pvp balance and we don't want that at the moment.

[drot]

Changed to "Bonus HtH Criticals". Still a bit confusing due to "HtH Criticals" perk, but I think it's better than it was.

Bonus HtH Damage+ -> More HtH Criticals (since we have More Criticals perk for BG/SG/EW users)
HtH Criticals -> Better HtH Criticals (since we have Better Criticals perk for BG/SG/EW users)

We'll merge Unarmed and Melee Weapons skills into Close Combat, but do not expect that we'll introduce a new skill and especially something like Evasion. That would be a big change to Pvp balance and we don't want that at the moment.

Merging them is wonderful news, Evasion can wait a bit I guess since it's a bit of a radical change.

[Kilgore]

Bonus HtH Damage+ -> More HtH Criticals (since we have More Criticals perk for BG/SG/EW users)
HtH Criticals -> Better HtH Criticals (since we have Better Criticals perk for BG/SG/EW users)

Yeah, sounds good.

[Strike]

I would like to see that those unarmed special attacks don't come instantly to player, you need get them from teacher.
(Some quest, killing something with unarmed)

[drot]

I would like to see that those unarmed special attacks don't come instantly to player, you need get them from teacher.
(Some quest, killing something with unarmed)

They don't come instantly and they have their prerequisites already.