August 09, 2020, 07:57:06 am
Username:

Password:

Topic: Armor rework suggestions with a bit of sneak  (Read 950 times)

Maxron

  • Posts: 8
    • View Profile
Armor rework suggestions with a bit of sneak
« on: December 31, 2019, 10:58:45 am »
The following notes are meant to provide more tactical based choice for players, decrease the linearity of armor tiers and further develop the variety of character builds. At this moment server is basically on hiatus and few balancing tests might bring some action without major problems.


Armor Class – invert the whole armor class scale and make it better for worse armor.
Now I understand there already were some major changes involving armor class and I know that it was taken from the original game practically untouched, but it still kinda loses it’s purpose (as it did in original game). As far as I know, armor class directly influences the chance to be hit by opponent and is increased with the armor tier and quality. And here comes the illogical part – the better (heavier and larger) armor you have, the less chance to be hit you get. Basically, having a vault suit with the smallest silhouette possible you have the highest chance to be hit but the huge mountain-like APA gives you the lowest chance to be hit when reality is a total contrast.
In my suggestion the smallest target with light armor is supposed to be the hardest to aim at, but when you hit it, you hit hard. Yet the biggest one will be way easier to hit, but unlike light armor it can really take that hit. That said inverting the Armor Class tier scale would be sort of logical and might bring us some funny builds (like naked evasive melee monks). Light armor will have the purpose of avoidance and heavy armor will get the direct combat role. Personally I would be happy with just this change, but I can also expect some adjustments for high tier armor DR and DT to compensate that.
I understand that the base idea of Armor Class was to get yet another parameter that protects you (by cutting the chances to be hit), but we already have straight and simple DT and DR for that, yet the logic behind AC is quite unexplained.

PA and APA – make vulnerable to EMP damage type at some point.
That would make a fair counter to PA players in pvp (like Town Control) and since there is only two sources of EMP damage (12 gauge EMP shells and Pulse grenades) PA will still remain powerful enough to make presence. The main point is to make PA players stay more awared in pvp and other non-PA players (mostly faction squads) to sacrifice shotgun or grenade damage to create more threat to PA. That would not make a lot of imbalance since shotguns with EMP shells will deal exceptionally low damage against everything else as well as Pulse grenades which also require decent throwing skill being a pretty rare item.

Metal armor (+Mk2) – reduce Laser DR and increase Normal DR.
It is quite unexplained why this armor has ridiculous 75-80% Laser DR (making it comparable to Tesla’s and PA’s ~85%) yet awful 25-30% of Normal DR (comparable to Leather armor). Considering it has a low Plasma and Electricity DR, how different can those damage types be for Laser? I assume that stats were just copied from the original game, but in FOnline more than a half armor sets have 60%+ DR to Laser, which makes laser kinda underperforming damage type in both pvp and pve. I can also assume that Metal Armor is considered as a Tier 2 “multipurpose” protection or “Leather with Laser DR”, but it really looks more like cheap Tesla (which is quite strange since Tesla is a nishe choice). As for laser snipers, people use tesla helmet to counter them anyway, not the body armor.

Thermal Armor – make stats comparable to Leather Armor Mk1 (except Fire DR ofc). A little laser/plasma/electricity DR boost to compensate might be in order, but not necessary. I also suggest to make blueprint acquirable through specific quest only.
For now Thermal Leather Armor is basically a better version of Leather Mk2, copying it’s stats and adding 75% Fire DR, when it would be more logical to make people choose between Mk2 and Thermal (Like with Tesla and Metal Mk2). If you want overall better protection – you take Leather Mk2. If you want exceptional fire resistance – you take Thermal (with other stats copied from Leather Mk1).
In addition Leather Armor is commonly used by sneaker builds and it would be a nice touch to give them a sneak-based quest for Thermal Armor blueprint. The quest can involve some powerful npc’s and be completed either by high-level character (who just wants loot, exp and a blueprint for another character) or sneaker who can (depending on sneak/lockpick/steal level) pass the quest peacefully without taking down all the NPCs and gathering loot. I assume even some of existing quests can be changed that way.

Sneak – add an increased chance to dodge projectiles while sneaked (Through a new perk probably).
Basically it explains itself – if person is sneaked it blends in the environment better and has lesser chance to be hit. That will give melee sneakers more chances to get close to the target and ranged sneakers to avoid the unlikely encounter. The first hit from both sides will take off the sneak anyway, but at least the change will negate a bit the effect of motion sensor. Burst weapons should still be pretty good with revealing sneakers.


That said any reasonable respond to this wall of text would be appreciated.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2019, 11:00:57 am by Maxron »

Slowhand

  • Posts: 263
  • Go for the eye, Boo! Go for the eyes!
    • View Profile
Re: Armor rework suggestions with a bit of sneak
« Reply #1 on: January 01, 2020, 09:38:16 pm »
The only real meaning and maybe even balance to armors I can see, is for armors that give high protection, lower your AP or other means to encumber.
Make a choise, be agile, be tough or in between. Or get lucky/rich for PA/APA.

For costs and tiers, it's simple:

T1 MK1/2-> T2 MK1/2

Leather Jacket -> Leather armor - No penalties, weak protections.
Combat Armor -> Desert CA - Good average protection, minor penalties.
Metal armor -> Tesla armor - Both bulky, so high protection but high penalty.

PA -> APA strong and rare ofc.

Won't bring players back, so until there are <10 online, why bother/.

Maxron

  • Posts: 8
    • View Profile
Re: Armor rework suggestions with a bit of sneak
« Reply #2 on: January 02, 2020, 12:35:29 am »
Leather Jacket -> Leather armor - No penalties, weak protections.
Combat Armor -> Desert CA - Good average protection, minor penalties.
Metal armor -> Tesla armor - Both bulky, so high protection but high penalty.

PA -> APA strong and rare ofc.

Well, you certainly have to define what penalty is. Taking away AP can be tricky since Metal armor is already underperforming by all means and making it's stats better than Combat armor would be weird even with AP penalty. Thats why I suggest certain DR/DT penalties (and benefits) rather than simple debuffs.
PA is exceptional, but having a weak spot like rare EMP damage should be in order.

Slowhand

  • Posts: 263
  • Go for the eye, Boo! Go for the eyes!
    • View Profile
Re: Armor rework suggestions with a bit of sneak
« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2020, 11:46:25 am »
Leather Jacket -> Leather armor - No penalties, weak protections.
Combat Armor -> Desert CA - Good average protection, minor penalties.
Metal armor -> Tesla armor - Both bulky, so high protection but high penalty.

PA -> APA strong and rare ofc.

Well, you certainly have to define what penalty is. Taking away AP can be tricky since Metal armor is already underperforming by all means and making it's stats better than Combat armor would be weird even with AP penalty. Thats why I suggest certain DR/DT penalties (and benefits) rather than simple debuffs.
PA is exceptional, but having a weak spot like rare EMP damage should be in order.

for armors that give high protection, lower your AP or other means to encumber.

This means, that Metal protections would be raised to proper defense ofc. I posted armor types in order of having lowest protection with lowest encumbrance on top.

On another topic, generally on suggestions and designs:

I do not see the reason to hold onto historic values and designs. Instead of +- value here or there, just redesign a proper way. FOnline is outdated in every sense unfortunatly, might start updating here as well.

Let me give you an example, what I think about what route ppl who design the game (or those who give ideas) should take, ofc this is highly subjective:

Instead of having SG/BG/Energy weapons, only have Small Guns and Big Guns skill, (Laser Riffle = SG, Gatling Laser = BG) and let players swap the type of damage they do on the fly. This will not introduce high skill ceiling, but it's at least something, compared to the monotone setups, or the gamble what type of char you meet based on your gear/skills. -> Am I an EW user? Did I just encountered someone in Tesla armor?  :facepalm  FML
« Last Edit: January 03, 2020, 11:50:02 am by Slowhand »

Maxron

  • Posts: 8
    • View Profile
Re: Armor rework suggestions with a bit of sneak
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2020, 01:17:43 am »
Quote
I posted armor types in order of having lowest protection with lowest encumbrance on top.
At this moment practically all armors already have their downsides.
Leather is weak, Metal is heavy and weird (low normal DR and high Laser DR), Tesla and Thermal are damage specific, Combat armor is complex to acquire and has no specific resistances, PA is just hard to acquire and maintain (not a problem for farmers tho, thats why I suggest to bring a weak spot). Adding "penalties" to high armor tiers is a very straight effort to push people back to using low tier armor, when I'd rather advise to make armors situation specific so people would choose armor not by amount of encumbrances but their needs (and game is already doing that).
Spoiler: show
For instance
Jacket is trash training dummy for crafting
Leather for sneakers (in case of Thermal stats rework)
Thermal for gecko hunters/pvp
Metal as cheap caravan guard protection (again in case of rework)
Tesla for specific dungeons/pvp
Combat as good average multipurpose protection
PA for special dungeon/pvp occasions


Although my suggestion of Armor Class scale reverse should do kinda the same thing as "penalties mechanic", since high armor tiers would become easier to be hit than low armor tiers. Not AP penalty but pretty straight encumbrance.

Quote
I do not see the reason to hold onto historic values and designs. Instead of +- value here or there, just redesign a proper way.
"Redesign" includes changing the stats values, and I wasn't talking about historical accuracy. You don't always need to fully rework a thing that doesnt work, just give it fitting stats and you're good to go.
Also considering low development activities, DR/DT changes are closer to become real than penalties mechanic (or gun skills rework or any new game mechanic at this point).
« Last Edit: January 04, 2020, 01:23:58 am by Maxron »

Slowhand

  • Posts: 263
  • Go for the eye, Boo! Go for the eyes!
    • View Profile
Re: Armor rework suggestions with a bit of sneak
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2020, 08:02:56 pm »
Well, if you want to contribute in the "change values for balance/usability" direction, I remember Kilgore telling us that he used excel spreadsheets to verify balance data.. not sure about the exact process, but back in the days he wanted us to provide the spreadsheet as well. I remember I did one for hit chance calculation about 5 years ago, but it never got used, so you better take some other example...

Good luck :)

Maxron

  • Posts: 8
    • View Profile
Re: Armor rework suggestions with a bit of sneak
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2020, 09:25:07 pm »
Hmm, I compared most armor stats from Reloaded and original Fallout 2.
Practically all of them got nefred a bit (by ~5 points of normal, explosive or electrical DR) and few small (1-2 points) uncertain DT changes. Except for PA and APA, stats for those are totally same.
Also some AC changes are noticable, mostly nerfs (by ~5 points in most cases) but funny enough, when Leather got nerfed from 15-20 to 10, Metal got buffed from 10 to 15. Considering my request about AC rework, even Fallout 2 game developers were more logical at this point.

So, I can tell there was some balancing job done by Reloaded developers but I'd really like to know more about that "exact process" and reasoning. I assume that most armors got nerfed a bit for multiplayer purposes, but that didnt help Metal armor really and I'd still like to see the AC rework. This should mix up some meta builds thats for sure.

Mad Matt

  • Posts: 1797
    • View Profile
Re: Armor rework suggestions with a bit of sneak
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2020, 06:25:23 pm »
That's what I tought. Metal Armor buff for 1/5-10 DT/DR would be logical and awsome.
GUN FOR HIRE