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Topic: Let players help fixing stuff?  (Read 3474 times)

cthulchu

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Let players help fixing stuff?
« on: January 28, 2019, 04:15:32 pm »
I was thinking about fixing the farm and a bunch of balance issues in smaller quests.

The farm, in particular, has many known issues like dialogs that obviously need to use the say functionality, but don't or the priest whose name is "error" currently.

Smaller quests like gecko sanctuary or find-and-kill-this-really-buffed-opponent have incredibly boring, non-scripted loot that could be more surprising with some light statting.

I'd love to fix these issues and PR the changes so that the devs could review and release them. These are trivial fixes that don't require a lot of work or peer review time. I still remember angel script from s2.

The only thing required is to release the source (that was leaked anyway). Why don't we release it and start incorporating people's work in it?

Slowhand

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Re: Let players help fixing stuff?
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2019, 02:32:41 pm »
Release the source or not, managing help from outside is not easy. What would happen is that everyone would solve something that they think is bronken, which most of the time is personal preference.

I think they tried in the past, giving out tasks to players, like make this map etc, but didn't work all that optimal out.

Anyone could add new content by using S2 source and making new location, quest, npc, script, which can be integrated, but not many bother.

cthulchu

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Re: Let players help fixing stuff?
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2019, 11:49:01 pm »
Make this map is not a good task really. I mean, it's good if you know a player is a worthy dev and won't commit shit. It takes too much time to test a map. I mean, I made one location. It took a week, it ended up introducing what, like about ten new functions, a few maps and a few dialogues. I also learned how to remove movement blockers on the fly, which was a lot of fun.

But now a dev would have to spend a lot more time to test all of that and make sure it's safe to release. It's hours of reviewing.

I'm not even talking about new content. Let the core team tackle the new content. They have a better understanding of where they wanna move the game.

I purely talk about slight but significant improvements to existing content. Slight enough for it to be really easy to peer review. Like, okay, this commit only changes these five lines and adds an extra option that makes perfect sense. Okay, merge the commit.

And so it took an hour for a player to make a commit and 2 minutes for a developer to review and merge it.

This way we would have a lot more small, people-driven cosmetic updates that would make the overall experience better. We have it in CDDA. Any player can commit small changes and if they make sense, the devs merge them. The majority of the changes commited by the userbase are just simple JSON data improvements.

Now, I know I would commit small things from time to time for sure. I keep encountering idiotic errors that I know how to fix, but can't commit my fixes. I'm sure you'd commit things, Slowhand. Maybe a few more folks. Well yes, we don't have the online we used to have, but I'm sure we'll regain it and with it, we'll get more public involvement.

worldremaker

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Re: Let players help fixing stuff?
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2019, 07:15:10 am »
! ! ! N E V E R ! ! !

It will be permission to ruin the whole game. Better start realize your own vision of the game.

worldremaker

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Re: Let players help fixing stuff?
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2019, 03:31:17 pm »
Those bugs could be fixed during run of S2. Someone should believe now in that you will do it in S3? I have an experience with it and can't trust the "contributors" anymore.

And one more thing - you can make some fixes of bugs at S2 SDK and import them to S3 easily. You don't need to have the S3 files here. Maps? If you're really so good mapper then just rebuilt them - S3 Mapper is a public tool. Good Luck!

cthulchu

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Re: Let players help fixing stuff?
« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2019, 10:51:22 pm »
If you can fix but can't commit then you could send these fixes directly to bosses. In the other hand what you can fix when you don't have access to new content...

Exactly. I don't mind sending my fixes over mail/PMs, although it's awkward af in the age of git and steals time from both sides.

But, indeed, what can I fix if I don't have the source. To be honest, for 90% of the fixes, I don't even need the scripts, so they could release to public only the data files. Maps and strings without any scripts. Although in that case I wouldn't be able to test the fix completely, but hey, it's data. Data fixes are easier than script fixes and they require a lot less testing generally since it's harder to make mistakes.

cthulchu

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Re: Let players help fixing stuff?
« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2019, 10:54:22 pm »
Those bugs could be fixed during run of S2. Someone should believe now in that you will do it in S3? I have an experience with it and can't trust the "contributors" anymore.
You don't need to believe anything. It's code. It's in front of you. Open your eyes. Do peer review. It's also only data we're talking about. Almost no logic there. So hard to cheat. Also we're talking s3 stuff. S2 didn't have that many trivial bugs. Well, it's to be expected. S3 added lots of new content.
And one more thing - you can make some fixes of bugs at S2 SDK and import them to S3 easily. You don't need to have the S3 files here. Maps? If you're really so good mapper then just rebuilt them - S3 Mapper is a public tool. Good Luck!
again, I didn't notice that many simple issues in s2. S3 mapper? S3 has a new mapper or something? I missed it, lol.

worldremaker

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Re: Let players help fixing stuff?
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2019, 12:15:51 pm »
You don't need to believe anything. It's code. It's in front of you. Open your eyes. Do peer review. It's also only data we're talking about. Almost no logic there. So hard to cheat. Also we're talking s3 stuff. S2 didn't have that many trivial bugs. Well, it's to be expected. S3 added lots of new content.
Looks easy - when you know how it should work then just write the replacement and send it for rewrite. Documentation is public, many SDKs are public, forum is public, where other devs are ready to answer on any question... Only the lack of willingness and laziness, huh?
S3 has a new mapper or something? I missed it, lol.
Damn, you missed it. lol? That's why the code isn't public - it's a waste of time for FOnline devs and causing unwanted questions from lazy people who don't really want to even look there. Public S3 Mapper was released during S2 run but it seems it's not in your business to know about it.
It's in front of you. Open your eyes.
Yeah, who's talking about. Mr FixIt who don't know even how to start.

S3 repository must stay in non-public state - with this there's some higher chance to make something different in FOnline. S2 release showed only that players started looking for usable bugs and exploits, but not fixing or adding new ones features.

POWERPUFF

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Re: Let players help fixing stuff?
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2019, 02:25:26 pm »
to me people can contribute by:
* reporting bugs
* coming up with suggestions
* trying to abuse something without benefiting out of it but report it instead
* various donations

what people shouldn't:
* have an access to any server data file
* implement their vision on their own by their own

Directive lead, small team, people who share ideas is the key. More than 5 people and we'll be talking Bethesda here. F76 is a disaster.
The Almighty Gaylords


Wipe

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Re: Let players help fixing stuff?
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2019, 08:53:54 am »
worldremaker defending closed-source like some madman on drugs, and here i'm sitting wondering where Reloaded would be (and by extension - AfterTimes) if 2238 would stay closed.

Because honestly, you're the single person in this thread who benefits most from open-source. You're working on server which is based on open-sourced Reloaded, which is based on open-sourced 2238, which is based on (suprise!) open-sourced TLA. And now everything you have to say is "mine, mine, mine!"
« Last Edit: March 22, 2019, 09:10:21 am by Wipe »
Games are meant to be created, not played...


worldremaker

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Re: Let players help fixing stuff?
« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2019, 10:51:43 am »
To be honest - Reloaded S2 was released on my ask to Kilgore. On this source I've created the Aftertimes, but keeping it too close to their predecessors, like 2238 or Reloaded wasn't the good idea and better is create something else than clone.

I know the stories where people said "I will work when sources will be released". And then...?
I'm always telling - if someone have some idea and knows how to do it then sources are unnecessary.
Before the open of FOnline engine source by cvet you can hear many times "FOnline engine is broken, and I need the sources to work" what was a complete nonsense. Now it's open, and what? Same persons who told those words still don't do anything.

Lets get back to Reloaded.
Releases of working game provides some of players to find the way how to use the cheats, what's really unwanted.

And Aftertimes:
Comparison this situation to Aftertimes doesn't have place here. It was created like you said at Reloaded S2, it worked as officiall release and guys from Reloaded (what I know) are thinking about implement some of features to their game. Important here is that those features were written by myself from line 1 to EOF, not on some source-base. So Reloaded S2 SDK is enough when someone want to start writing or fixing some elements of the game.

Current asks about game source looks for me like:
1. I wanna see the code for "better play".
2. Finally I'll update my unicorn private server.

Especially when this one was started by someone who even doesn't know how to start but can read the elements of the code.

Wipe

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Re: Let players help fixing stuff?
« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2019, 02:56:39 pm »
Before the open of FOnline engine source by cvet you can hear many times "FOnline engine is broken, and I need the sources to work" what was a complete nonsense. Now it's open, and what? Same persons who told those words still don't do anything.
Why do you care? Because honestly - i don't. License cvet picked for engine is made with open-source in mind, so FOClassic had to follow it - doing otherwise would be nothing else than lack of respect to cvet and his work. And people actually work on engine, just hide it gods knows where. Guess "price" cvet set to get something they dreamed of for years is simply too much :/

Lets get back to Reloaded.
Releases of working game provides some of players to find the way how to use the cheats, what's really unwanted.

They don't need source for that. I know a bunch of players who knows where to look, no matter which server, but would never catch most obvious exploit by just looking at code. And hey, let's look at big, commercial MMOs - all of them closed-source, are they exploit-free? Yeah, suuure...
Assuming that every single player is evil incarnate and wakes up every morning to exploit game is silly - there's always a chance for someone skilled enough is somewhere among playerbase who wants a fair game. Even if main motive is to make rival gang loose advantage ;)

Current asks about game source looks for me like:
1. I wanna see the code for "better play".
2. Finally I'll update my unicorn private server.

Then look the other way, check how many people can work on game and how much of them is active. That's not even Reloaded-specific problem, as it affects most of servers. Only fraction of players mutates into devs, and they usually migrate to their own thing...

Reloaded S2 SDK is enough when someone want to start writing or fixing some elements of the game.
...as all they have access to is a snapshot already outdated in the moment of release. S2 has been released over 3 (three!) years ago. You really want to make sure some old bug isn't reintroduced? Or that some small, but important change isn't removed by accident? What about all of maps/dialogs changes which aren't as easy to compare as scripts? All of it even more work than checking pull requests line by line - for both new contributors and old devs. Synching few months old code to current can be exhausting, and you suggest to do this with THREE YEARS OLD code which went thru big changes along the way. You gotta be kidding me, never actually tried to maintain project that way, or your calendar is already on 1st April.


You people focus on oh-so-evil players which wouldn't be able to hold their orgasms once they'll be able to find most juicy exploits on market to get massive, i repeat, MASSIVE amount of pixels... and completely ignore the fact that there's nearly no new blood among old servers teams since last few years, and that's what should be a main drive behind making FOnline servers more open to anyone willing to help. Maybe nothing will change. Maybe some players will discover inner love to suffering coding. Maybe we'll have more updated wiki. Maybe other servers will vulture fancy stuff. Yeah, it's all "maybe". So maybe stop being scared of bugs which might or might not be there, and at least try to find people who can deal with them in future. Pissing own pants all the time won't change anything.
Games are meant to be created, not played...


Kilgore

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Re: Let players help fixing stuff?
« Reply #12 on: March 22, 2019, 05:43:34 pm »
I don't see any point in releasing current Reloaded source simply because bad outcome exceeds good outcome (which is next to none).

I'm going to follow 2238 policy as far as source is concerned, so in case that project is closed some day, it will be released for anybody that wants to do something with it, or continue it, or whatever.

I think that atm if someone wants to do anything (map, dialogues, quests, new feature, item, whatever) then he/she has lots of tools to complete it. mojuk even made a version based on FOClassic if someone wants to base a game around it... what else is needed, really? I know that a-bit-outdated-by-now version of Reloaded S3 was leaked but I don't support it and I don't approve it, especially in the form it was posted.

And yeah if 2238 source wasn't released then there would be no Reloaded but please also remember that while 2238 was running, no parts of it were shared that I know of.

Wipe

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Re: Let players help fixing stuff?
« Reply #13 on: March 22, 2019, 06:15:24 pm »
I'm going to follow 2238 policy (...) while 2238 was running, no parts of it were shared
As someone who worked on 2238, i can't say that was a good idea.

Well, the man has spoken, move along.
Games are meant to be created, not played...


Henry

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Re: Let players help fixing stuff?
« Reply #14 on: July 05, 2019, 03:27:09 pm »
I don't see any point in releasing current Reloaded source simply because bad outcome exceeds good outcome (which is next to none).

I'm going to follow 2238 policy as far as source is concerned, so in case that project is closed some day, it will be released for anybody that wants to do something with it, or continue it, or whatever.

I think that atm if someone wants to do anything (map, dialogues, quests, new feature, item, whatever) then he/she has lots of tools to complete it. mojuk even made a version based on FOClassic if someone wants to base a game around it... what else is needed, really? I know that a-bit-outdated-by-now version of Reloaded S3 was leaked but I don't support it and I don't approve it, especially in the form it was posted.

And yeah if 2238 source wasn't released then there would be no Reloaded but please also remember that while 2238 was running, no parts of it were shared that I know of.

Point 1
I don't disagree, until you disappear for months. Your extended lack of presence strongly suggests you're giving up here. If that's not the case, then we need to hear from you sometimes. If it is the case, then please share it before it shuts down, rather than wait until afterwards. That way we can have some transition time to get a new one going while this one is winding down but still active.

Point 2
You're right - we have dev tools available, and can all pitch in some creative time and help enhance the game. Should we though? With devs/mods missing-in-action, we can't tell if it's worth trying. You don't need to be here much, but current lack of presence is casting a rather grim shadow over our future. We can't tell if it's just some bad weather or the end of the world[map].