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Topic: Sneaker armors  (Read 3899 times)

Blarney

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Sneaker armors
« on: March 26, 2018, 05:55:25 am »
So thermal leather is the new fire gecko leather, basically just the name was changed, and it made me wonder why there can't be other sneak armor options, even with only slight differences, or potentially going up to t4 sneak armor (like chinese stealth armor or somesuch hehe).

We have the difference of the lower end sneaker armors, in both how it looks on the player model and in stats, but those basic leathers are almost useless by comparison (whereas at least metal armor serves a function independent from CA for example).

Why not take better advantage of these differences and have a high end black leather sneak armor, comparable to leather mk2 in its own right? This requires a lot less effort than say a whole new t4 sneak armor animation/color set (which honestly could just be a basic black reskin of CA for sneaks and i'd be happy  ;) ).

I know this and the other pistol post make me look like some kind of sneaker obsessed whore, but I literally just noticed the name change and it made me think. What are the thoughts/fears on this topic?

Wichura

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Re: Sneaker armors
« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2018, 07:31:57 am »

Blarney

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Re: Sneaker armors
« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2018, 07:42:34 am »
How about a black sneaking robe with 40% sneak bonus?

Could be cool to have something like that, at the very least its a good point about robes being another potential armor set for sneaks that could serve a specific purpose (boosting sneak I'm not sure about but something).

zekromo

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Re: Sneaker armors
« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2018, 10:00:51 am »
You are a sneak narcissist Blarney, why attempt to suggest differently? :D
What would be the boosts to such a new sneak armour besides being a darkened reskin of leather armour? Would it increase sneak, decrease view range of seeing the sneaker, increase sneak according to time of day (night)... What would you believe it to have?

I ask because I simply do not know what would be an appropriate yet effective bonus for this new armour you suggest to implement, although that's not to say I have a few ideas for bonuses to sneaking.

However the idea of a "high end sneaker armour" is pretty debatable: why would a sneaker need a high end armour? Most to the time in previous season I had heard so many sneak suggestions to buff defences of the sneaker, which understandably was turned down because why the hell would defence be buffed for a scouting and anti sneak role? :D

However if "high end" would refer to a bonus to the sneaking character that hasn't a slither of increasing defence, then we need to refer back to my first paragraph and discuss what the bonus would be, and how often it could be gained. A T4 armour for sneaking, IMO,  is redundant in practicality and design. For example would a sneaker really wish to give up a sneak version of the power armor or hpa? Even more so when you factor in how weak in defences one is? :D

My suggestion would be something like the TIER 3.5 last season, with the same way of acquiring too. I believe it would be an uncommon item on the same levels as NCR/ENCLAVE/BROTHERHOOD but would only be useful for sneakers obviously, and hence could find faith, if we use last season, in the economy as sneakers would trade front line combat gear for the stealth gear. It could be the Chinese stealth suit or just a general stealth or, for the realism heads like me, some sort of recon armor?

Think enclave and brotherhood recon armor, both sharing similar undiscussed bonuses to sneak but with respective uniqueness for their background, again which I believe could be discussed further!

However the incentive for the armour? I do not know... Care to share some ideas for the bonus?

PS: Its nice to see you back Blarney mate :) Thought uni locked you up and threw away the key!
« Last Edit: March 26, 2018, 10:02:52 am by zekromo »
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Blarney

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Re: Sneaker armors
« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2018, 11:24:38 am »
Zek! :D good to see you too man, Uni is all done and dusted for now, its just the normalities of life locking me up at the moment.

I can agree with the sentiments you posited there entirely, sneaks definitely shouldn't ever be "tanky" by any comparative measure to CA tanks etc, that is a fine point, so yeah if any kind of t4 sneak armor was worth making it would have to be based more around some kind of ability or bonus, perhaps something as simple as counting as the same bonus as a stealthboy permanently and just being ever so slightly tougher than the armor beneath it in the scale, but then that's hardly a T4 worthy buff indeed, perhaps 3.5 tier would be a better place for that kind of idea.

As far as other basic t3 or below sneak armors and their distinctions I would think that one would focus on being high AC with very low resistances and DTs (AC is working a bit better these days), whereas others could focus on resisting the non normal damage types more effectively.

Say just for example if leather mk2 was the baseline, best sneaker normal resist/dt armor, certain robes could function as high AC but paper resistances, and Combat Jackets (maybe a mk2 version of them) could functionally be more resistant to explosions, laser and plasma (higher than leather mk2 at least) and having paper thin normal DT/DR (something like 1/20% normal).

You make a very good point about the kind of oxymoron that is the notion of advanced sneaker armor when their armor is supposed to be near paper for a reason, and I agree it certainly shouldn't be the focus of sneaking to be at all reliably tanky, I guess the idea would focus more around just being a nice find and small bonus for a sneaker to come across, but that is useless (a wasted t4 drop) to anyone who isn't a sneaker, so yeah, I don't have a real comeback for that argument, damn good point.

As for thoughts on outside buffs in general, if it is an advanced armor it could have functionality like tesla in having some sort of buildup/discharge effect, whether that discharge would be a knockback/down explosion, or something crazy like autostealthing under certain conditions. Or perhaps halving the negative effects of wielding bigger weapons while stealthing. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ probably too strong.

The notion of having a few choices in just the basic armors I think would be a much more worthy and easy to accomplish task, mainly in utilising those distinctly different looking armors (the models for leather armor versus leather jacket versus robes).

Blarney

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Re: Sneaker armors
« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2018, 11:42:56 am »
I know this and the other pistol post make me look like some kind of sneaker obsessed whore...

You are a sneak narcissist Blarney, why attempt to suggest differently? :D

LoL that's probably true I do love me some sneaking I can't deny it, perhaps I am a sneakwhore. But, I do feel my biases are measured in that respect, I don't want OP sneak stuff going on, just some interesting and comparable variety/options mostly.

zekromo

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Re: Sneaker armors
« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2018, 11:42:45 am »
A higher action class (AC) could be something to look into with regards to sneaking, but I have no clue whether that system is functional on this season since it wasn't really something anyone put any weight on prior. Furthermore nobody would think to use it in a player versus player situation due to other styles and mechanics being far more preferable and, objectively speaking, being on the base line of practicality over AC.

AC can also be a problem again with the concept of the sneaker role. I presume the hypothetical high AC boost is to increase the chances of survival for a sneaker, and I hold strong belief that that should not be the case.

From experience I can state 4 aspects of the sneaker role that are INTEGRAL to the role itself and not added flavour:

|1) The ability to sneak; mainly the ability to run and sneak successfully: (300% sneak + Silent Running)
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|2) The ability to scout; continuous learning to understand the map and positioning.
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|3) Armour of valid choice + weapon for anti sneak and/or anti sniper.
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|[3:1] - Based on previous season there were 3: 223/Sniper; Big Guns/Plasma Grenade; Solar.
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|4) The ability to survive.
|

The ability to survive consists of being able to utilise all three prior aspects successfully and harmoniously. If you fail in one or more areas then you fail the ability to survive as a sneak. For example you may have 300% sneak and respective perk, and you know how to use a .223 properly, but if you do not know the map layout then you have failed aspect 4 and are expected to die. Another would be knowing only the map layout but not knowing that you need 300% sneak and using melee for weapon of choice. These reasons are typically why newer players who want to play sneak give up because it's either too challenging to learn, they drop themselves into this hard role expecting for things to give way, etc - main reason why disinterest occurs.

Why I chose to state all of this is because I do not believe AC to have a place in any of these aspects or being an aspect in itself. Sneaking requires attention and learning, not a mechanic based on giving even more chances of survival from being shot. The role is to scout and give information about the enemy, and if you get caught then chances are you are going to die due to either making a mistake (of which to learn from) or an enemy sneaker has found you. I see no reason why this should be changed to accommodate surviving when being found so you can just run away and be safe, knowing full well that your high AC will save your sorry behind from damage that should, in all respects, decimate you for your own mistake.

Now curving that tangent back to subject topic, I believe you have some very nice initial ideas for sneaker armour and bonuses. Robes, due to being extremely light, could be utilised better. Subjectively I think that maybe the AP cost to sneak in them should be reduced by -1 or -2 action points due to their weight, or utilise a code whereby the sand robes have lessened action point use to sneak on desert tiles (aspect of camouflage). Weaknesses are, of course, the disastrous defences.

A combat leather jacket MK2 I would welcome with open arms! Definitely containing a better resist for laser and plasma than an LAMK2 but with a malus for all other resistances - this could be due to reflective properties such as slathering the leather to increase against this type of damage, but reducing the amount of impact that can be attained by all other. FIRE resistance always being the lowest due to leather burning effectively.

I totally agree that the different types of sneaking armours should have different and unique properties to them that can benefit different types of sneaking on different types of maps, etc. Currently LAMK2 is the go to for sneaking because its just the better in defence bonuses over the others, but if alterations are made to make the others unique, for example the robe idea, then each will have a moment of thinking before a choice is made due to independent bonuses and weaknesses.

I will do some more thinking in later hours and will report later when I think of a suitable change for armours that compliment the model where each armour is unique and not one ruling supreme.

PS: That's great to hear UNI is out of the way mate! I have almost finished first year, with another four years to go R.I.P Hope things are going well for you lad
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Blarney

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Re: Sneaker armors
« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2018, 12:35:07 pm »
Love your work as per usual Zek.

Having tested sneaking a bit in the new session (the changes are really cool in this regard IMO), the major changes there are the new sneak skill max (max skill point investment) is now 270, with a hard cap of 300, which is made up by using a stealthboy and/or taking the Ghost perk and staying within 5 hexes of a wall (ghost also has a new bonus of also reducing the range at which you can be spotted from head on targets looking right at you, I think it becomes closer to the side front  view angle ranges, so has become an almost must have perk for sneaking). So as Wichura mentioned, having an armor set based on making up that 30 gap could serve a function too.

Adding to those integral aspects of sneak I would add the notion of always keeping your sneaker more than 15 hexes away from other players for fear of motion sensors, either having a custom range circle set up or knowing your distances is key there.
and
Know what/when you can engage and what/when you shouldn't engage, particularly identifying build that will destroy you most of the time, and in terms of team PvP, having trigger discipline as a scout and engaging with your team, from the right position, but that is kind of covered by your number 2 rule too.

zekromo

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Re: Sneaker armors
« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2018, 01:38:03 pm »
Capped at 270? With items required to get to 300? That's a really interesting addition to the mechanics! I guess that it is good to finally have some use with the stealth boys! Are they frequent to come across? I feel half inclined to register for this season to see the changes for this.

I guess having an armour that increases sneak could be viable BUT what is the argument to NOT apply the sneak bonus to the already available sneaking armours already? What would the different amount of sneaking bonuses be for the armours without it being arbitrary?

This is a good thread mate, got me thinking about this game again :D
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Blarney

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Re: Sneaker armors
« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2018, 02:09:32 pm »
Uhm, I haven't actually found a stealthboy (been using ghost), but I'm sure there's an easy way to get them, the no loot drop is really strange, its so different to be holding the same motion sensor and the same solar I found on day 1 or 2 by the end of my second week. I am so used to going through them like toilet paper that it is a little offsetting to adjust.

I mentioned in another post, but most of the changes are really great additions etc, people will vary on what they love/hate I am sure, but I think for the most part the changes are just plusses. BUT I am not at all sure where the f people are and what made them angry enough to leave (obviously the no 1hexing was too much for some).

So as much as i'd love to see you shneaking about with me and the like, its actually really depressing (in the scheme of my feelings toward the game and wanting it to grow and have success) to walk around the map and struggle to even see other players outside of the hub, and I wouldn't wish that feeling of sadness on anyone. What I have found fun is testing the new perks and limits of sneaking etc, but I think I have already hit a wall as there seems to be no PvP related goal, nowhere to expect consistent fighting and a number of changes that I am sure will infuriate, particularly in the abundance of guard NPCs in every town, the lack of t4, and the lack of "magic boxes" and other PvP focused loot areas that are worth going for. :(

I and I think the game too, are in a bit of a weird place, and it is strangest because I like so many of the changes, but I do not like near nobody playing.

Blarney

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Re: Sneaker armors
« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2018, 04:46:53 pm »
Sorry about the off topic rant, I don't mean to put you or anyone off, and I am definitely curious to hear your further thoughts on this sneak armour topic Zek, I respect your opinion on it.

zekromo

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Re: Sneaker armors
« Reply #11 on: March 28, 2018, 12:19:47 am »
I don't see what you mean by deterring people due to the last post?? :D

I have a lot in mind for a rework of the concept of sneaking overall that includes the dynamic of sneaking armours. Keeping with the armours itself, and in relation to the idea of the tier 3.5 armour for sneaks, I propose to think about the aforementioned "recon armour."

I believe that this would be a fitting idea due to recon armour in later fallout games being associated with sneaking, so why not include that retrospectively to the world of fallout 1/2 and fonline?

I previously considered branching off the recon armour into respective faction paths, namely an "Enclave Recon Armour" and a "Brotherhood Recon Armour." I will suggest differences between them below that, although share similar bonuses for being a recon armour, will have unique traits to identify with their faction status.

First and foremost is the base line for recon armour that is universal, and for that I could see it as primairly being a bonus to sneak skill. Additionally could be the idea of a lessened AP cost to activating sneak mode, perhaps by 1 action point. It could even be an armour that incorporates a sneaking perk, for example containing the ghost perk or extending the effectiveness of ghost perk to be, say, 10 hexes from a wall.

Now for the faction divergence, I wonder what could be applied here. Enclave is universally known to be resistant towards energy weapons which, if applied here, would increase the resistance to the BANE of all sneaks (laser) or against plasma grenades. However doing so would be counter intuitive to my last post of survivability of sneaks, but hypothetically this would only be a slight increase to the physical defence of a sneak which relates to the armour of choice which refers to aspect 3, meaning it a viable topic of discussion.

An enclave recon armour will therefore have such energy resists, allowing it to withstand against pure anti sneak roles (surviving against plasma grenades) A laser resistance increase should be expected here, however I am unsure if a sneak should ever survive a gatling laser shot at any range, so this may need to be thought out more, or maybe laser is dropped altogether. Further more, since enclave is of a darker colour, and as artifical as this sounds, perhaps increase sneak skill under darker conditions. Just an idea, but not one I would flesh out without thinking of any substance to back it :D

As for brotherhood, that is where I must admit a fault: I am at a loss for this divergence. I do know that there should be different types of recon armour as there are with combat armours, but brotherhood is the best armour before power armour, and a started brotherhood armour is better than a power armour if the normal res is higher. How to instead implement this into the recon armour without it being the better choice over the enclave is a challenge.

Having said that, it could be that the brotherhood, instead of covering their recon armour in reflective polymer sheeting or what have you, decided to increase the performance of their recon suit. This could be a bigger bonus to sneak, a further reduced action point cost to sneaking (perhaps even going far enough to say 0 action point for sneaking.) Dare I even include the ability to sneak even when enemies are facing you. To offset this, we could believe that the installation of the technologies used for this meant a drastic reduction in defensive properties to allow room for these changes without affecting the weight of the armour to compromise the ability to scout. The resistances could therefore be worsened to a leather jacket, or even a robe,but with a weight just over that of an lamk2.

I also would like to bring in the idea of these recon armours giving a bonus to movement speed of the player character, perhaps one of 10%. Just something for added flavour since they are modified suits of stealth after all  8) In fact lore has it that they are suit's used underneath power armour, so there must be a little credit to the mobility of the suits by themselves!
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Blarney

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Re: Sneaker armors
« Reply #12 on: March 28, 2018, 11:40:55 am »
A movement speed buff will just lead to some kind of abuse surely, but I am loving the other ideas there.

The point of having one sneak armour decent against laser/plasma is to provide the player with an option to counter something he might hate, the downside would be to have the normal resist of such armour low enough that other weapons of similar deadliness to gat laser on sneaks, even more deadly. So you would be trading the potential of being (slightly but enough to matter) tougher vs the likes of gat laser and plas grenades, while making something like an avenger rip you in half in most hits in exchange, which is arguably worse as so many carry weapons that deal normal damage (popularity of brd tanks is probably higher than gat laser tanks and sneak plasma naders combined), that would be the idea behind the t3 or lower sneak armour variant, or at least one of them.

Also thinking about it, having an armour (robes as an example) as high AC armour (paper on all resists though) would work similarly, in making you good at long ranges vs people who have min maxed their accuracy rate, but do almost nothing versus good snipers or people who go way beyond their min accuracy reqs, and also versus explosives I think AC wouldn't matter, so it would end up much of a muchness there, with many weapons/builds ripping you to shreds, while others would struggle more than normal.

zekromo

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Re: Sneaker armors
« Reply #13 on: April 03, 2018, 05:08:46 pm »
Energy weapons are usually the bane of a sneaker anyway, which is why plasma grenades are factored in as being the best anti sneak weapon used by other sneaks, and how gatling laser and laser rifles exterminate in one hit (via volume of damage or critical, but usually the former.)

However I was recently refreshed with how the laser resistances of the sneaker armours are more protective over the plasma resistances of the armour, hence why plasma grenades were choice over one handed energy weapons. In fact LAMK2 had the same laser resistance as LAMK1, CLJ and LJ (Laser DR = 20%). Contradictory to all this is how the Laser DR of a robe is at 25% , effectively meaning that you would effectively have more chance of surviving against laser in a robe.

However since laser should remain the bane of a sneaker, I do think that plasma resistance should be reworked on current sneak armours, especially how they all share a 10% damage resistance throughout with 0 threshold.

In spare time I will come up with something for this because I believe it should be resolved. This includes laser and plasma res rework.
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