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Topic: Making PVP/PK/APK more interesting in s3  (Read 5239 times)

cthulchu

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Making PVP/PK/APK more interesting in s3
« on: September 04, 2017, 05:56:10 am »
Disclaimer

Spoiler: show
Can - is a term describing a group of players characterized by the lowest intelligence possible, so they find it funny to troll low levels, overkilling them. Technically, mindless PKs


I did think about it from different perspectives, finding and solving the weak spots.

---
Preamble
Okay, so the new season changes pvp. Makes it less interesting since now we don't drop crap, right?

Now this is an important change that makes the game more noob-friendly, which is vital for any game. I love encountering noobs that help me. Tbh, both pvp and pve are needed and there is a sweet spot in proportion. The more players get satisfied by the proportion - the better, regardless whether it's a veteran or a noob. Our s3 is A LOT closer to the sweet spot than any other fonline.

Spoiler: show
yesterday I went to Hub to get fibers. Tried to get some and failed cuz it was harvested.
 A noob came by and apologized for taking all the fibres. Gave me half of it. Sooo sweet.

Or today I was doing lockers with my 21+ lvl melee explorer. I'm naked with a little jesus doing it RT.
 I encountered a centaurus and decided to kill it. A noob with an lsw came by and offered a hand.
 Intrigued, I agreed. He killed a centaurus and told me that I shouldn't hunt them with a knife.
 Sooo sweet!

This never happened to me in s2.


PvP players on both sides (the less intelligent side (tin cans) and the more intelligent side(AAs/UVs)) deserve some added interest. On the other hand, I noticed that some more degraded cans don't give up and still hunt noobs even though those noobs laugh at cans upon death.

I think there is an elegant way to use cans' stupidity to add some interest to pvp for more intelligent pvp lovers.

The idea

Since we implemented Karma, let's take a few steps further with it, shall we?

Let's say, if a player Can kills another player Noob, Can gets negative Karma. Sounds simple, but it's not, here are additional checks:
Spoiler: show

  • Noob's gear won't let him participate in a caravan (this caravan method can be recycled)
  • Noob hasn't attacked another player with positive Karma in this location/recently/whatever is easier to implement (can be done via the temporary status aka poiston/radiation)
  • This is not an active TC zone
  • This is not an official Dungeon (like Ares, etc)
  • Not a zone with a t3/t4 locker (Reno)
  • Not a HQ resources mine (I think pvp there brings more joy than harm and we have private mines for those who don't like the thrill)
  • Noob's level is lower than whatever. 24.

So then all these cans that spend around five hours a day killing noobs who try to do junking in shittown and boneyard are getting really negative Karma with no simple way of fixing it (they will find Karma fixing exploits, but those are easy to trace and fix).

But what's the point of it, you'd ask?

Let's implement another simple policy. If your Karma is lower than -100 (let's leave 100 points down for those who like to fck up quests), you start losing items upon death. You can implement gradual increase there, like every negative hundred increases the chance of losing every item on you by 10% or something interesting like that.

Now your Karma doesn't go down if you're killed. Nor does the Karma of the killer go up. Otherwise cans would exploit it and go wash it out killing technical characters or getting killed by them.

The only way to clean the Karma is to go to the Citadel and pay caps. The amount of caps would depend on the amount of negative Karma. It's really easy to implement.

Conclusion

Some people argue. They say: how come we can farm cans but they can't farm us. It's unfair. What I say is it's around same unfairness as when cans kill noobs, so then why not channeling that unfairness further and get it balanced out.

  • It will be more interesting for PKs, cuz now the process of trolling noobs is not as simple and boring.
  • It will be more interesting for APKs and good PVP players to go hunt PKs
  • It will be more interesting for noobs, who would not be killed constantly every five minutes and have to wait for two mins for the respawn (btw, respawn time for low levels could be cut significantly)

win-win-win.

And the server will become even better - another win for the server.

PS

Oh, cans, stop wining please. You know we love you. We know all this trolling is just to cover deep feeling of insecurity and fear or whatever, I'm not a psychologist rly. Anyway, it's ok. We value your presence and love to pvp against you.

PPS

I'm not bothered by PKs. But I remembered similar noob protection was implemented in older versions of Lineage when I saw Karma functioning in S3. And in Lineage they made it a lot of fun for everybody: PKs, APKs and even noobs cuz now once a noob gets PKed, he gets excited cuz he knows  he can get a piece of that PK.

Just decided to lay it out. I know it would require some significant scripting and then even more debugging and hotfixing. And it's the start of s3, so there is already more than enough hotfixing. But I just decided to lay it off of my mind.

PPS

Guys, please post your comments, ideas and exploits of this. Thanks, folks!
« Last Edit: September 04, 2017, 06:30:03 am by cthulchu »

Kaso

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Re: Making PVP/PK/APK more interesting in s3
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2017, 11:26:24 am »
Sounds great!

Rinzler

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Re: Making PVP/PK/APK more interesting in s3
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2017, 02:03:27 pm »
Nice ideas but I don't think such an elaborate system is needed. As I said on another post all it needs is no drop up to level 24 and then full loot. Getting killed matters little at the moment. I don't think noob protection is necessarily a good thing - learning to avoid getting killed is part of the games learning curveand a lot of the time when you are new it is because you are doing something wrong and/or not learning from mistakes.
When you get angry please try to remember it is not really me you are angry with, my words have simply triggered your pre-existing anger and in doing so created a false reality where it’s all my fault.

S.T.A.L.K.E.R

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Re: Making PVP/PK/APK more interesting in s3
« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2017, 02:10:38 pm »
PKs and APKs don't exist. It's just a title people brand themselves. Look at UVs post, anti pk for justice crap while they kill some noob farming gecko pelts.

And what's the point of karma system if it can easily be fixed. Nobody cares about that crap and the only thing to make PvP satisfying is being able to loot your opponent/kill. Yes this is literally what people care about.

zekromo

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Re: Making PVP/PK/APK more interesting in s3
« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2017, 02:33:38 pm »
The only thing to make PvP satisfying is being able to loot your opponent/kill. Yes this is literally what people care about.

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cthulchu

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Re: Making PVP/PK/APK more interesting in s3
« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2017, 02:37:10 pm »
Quote
learning to avoid getting killed is part of the games learning curveand a lot of the time when you are new it is because you are doing something wrong and/or not learning from mistakes.

yeah, but now there is a learning curve, right? You just forgot how it feels to be a noob. You don't know anything, you haven't visited 95% of the locations, you realized you need some junk to craft your first shotgun aaand, now you need to learn how to avoid being killed? On this stage it's a lot easier for you to ragequit the game and be done with it.

On the other hand, when you have your t2 intact and start learning about t3, it's a good time to make occasional PK happen.

And what's the point of karma system if it can easily be fixed. Nobody cares about that crap and the only thing to make PvP satisfying is being able to loot your opponent/kill. Yes this is literally what people care about.

Stalker, it's a good thing you're trying philosophy, but it's too tiny for me to address.  Nobody said easily. It can be fixed. But in a difficult way. Donating 100 caps to the Citadel for +1 karma is cheap? Make it 1k. 1k is cheap? Make it 10k. It's a question of fine tuning.

Well, I offer people a nice way to get loot :) hehe. From trolls :)

Rinzler

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Re: Making PVP/PK/APK more interesting in s3
« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2017, 04:50:46 pm »
Quote
learning to avoid getting killed is part of the games learning curveand a lot of the time when you are new it is because you are doing something wrong and/or not learning from mistakes.

yeah, but now there is a learning curve, right? You just forgot how it feels to be a noob. You don't know anything, you haven't visited 95% of the locations, you realized you need some junk to craft your first shotgun aaand, now you need to learn how to avoid being killed? On this stage it's a lot easier for you to ragequit the game and be done with it.

On the other hand, when you have your t2 intact and start learning about t3, it's a good time to make occasional PK happen.


I haven't forgotten anything, learning the way I described was both interesting and fun and I think it detracts from the whole experience of the game to have the sharp edges taken off. However I understand that some players see this more of a roleplay/post apocalyptic-facebook type of affair and PvP is spoiling that, which was why I suggested no loot protection up to level 24 was a good compromise.
When you get angry please try to remember it is not really me you are angry with, my words have simply triggered your pre-existing anger and in doing so created a false reality where it’s all my fault.

Slowhand

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Re: Making PVP/PK/APK more interesting in s3
« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2017, 05:35:30 pm »
The game needs provide meaningful PVP and not band aids for the problem of griefing. Drop enabling or disabling solves nothing. Do you really think players like The Khan, were hunting newbies around Junktown for resources or the their shitty drop? They kill for sport and that remains, with the frustration of loosing stuff or not.

What would solve these things is meaningful PVP, NPC and Players factions woven together, naturally making newbies zones safer. Something like faction wars, each NPC faction guarding their territory, the closer you are to a faction the higher chances of bumping into a NPC patrol making your griefing time harder to impossible. Controllable map location could extend your allied NPC factions territory and shrink the patrol area of enemy NPC factions, thus giving reason for PVP for both PK and APK groups.  If you kill someone in their faction zone, chances for patrol to catch you before you could bank your stuff. With good reputaion you could recover some of your lost stuff and maybe even the attackers (High Charisma could come into play) Your tents and bases would be revealed if opposing faction takes control of that territory, thus making the local banking part of the game matter more. The starter areas having less resource ofc, but being safer, other areas would be accessible safely by doing quests, repeatable quests for a faction and the areas where there are no patrols at all, would yield best results, like easier to find high quality mats, mob dropped weapons, etc.

This would take awful amount of work, possibly years. Even if the devs had similar idea and commit to it, just closing down the bugs and exploitability issues in this Season will take at least half a year imo, so for now, enjoy the no drop. It takes balls to do such a change, I admire that in the devs, but ofc, just reading this in change list made 80% of my interest pop away.

No full loot = No thrill. That is fact.


Note: I do not know what devs reserved for us for PVE, still exploring slowly, maybe they already have such or better design already.

Veki

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Re: Making PVP/PK/APK more interesting in s3
« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2017, 05:45:12 pm »
New sugestion for PVP because i heard many pvp players complane about this game.

I belive we can make compromise here...no drop loot but killing player can be awarded with xp like formula: killed player level x 50 Xp, also karma drop like 50 in all cityes per kill(you are bad guy, police want you dead)
counter for players like for encounters. Now pvp is dead because you dont have awards for eforst and you loosing gear for nothing.
In this case players are protected from loosing gear for new players and you can back pvp players into this server. I think in this both sides get something. Also my opinion is that old Town control is better that new one. Alredy have many dungeons in game...is gonna get more action before because player are alredy full gear and back to game, is gonna be harder now to defend.

Somebody say they gonna abyse this but is gonna be pain in ass to wait alts respawn 1 minutes and characters lose xp over 24 levels...
« Last Edit: September 04, 2017, 06:06:13 pm by Veki »

cthulchu

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Re: Making PVP/PK/APK more interesting in s3
« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2017, 06:53:20 pm »
Yeah, this idea is a bit complex. Have to read it with attention to understand. Most people don't quite get it cuz they scan it rather than read. Well, I don't wanna argue and explain it again rly. Have stuff to do. Please, read the first post again if you think I missed anything. Most likely you missed something.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2017, 07:07:04 pm by cthulchu »

Kaso

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Re: Making PVP/PK/APK more interesting in s3
« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2017, 08:02:12 am »
New sugestion for PVP because i heard many pvp players complane about this game.

I belive we can make compromise here...no drop loot but killing player can be awarded with xp like formula: killed player level x 50 Xp, also karma drop like 50 in all cityes per kill(you are bad guy, police want you dead)

How about this formula:

(Killers level - victims level) x 200 = Exp

You only get Exp for killing higher level players. No more noob farming...

Mad Matt

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Re: Making PVP/PK/APK more interesting in s3
« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2017, 09:45:03 am »
Abusable cause some players use their main chars many times (high level) and some players use chars that are pvp oriented, so they have 24-30 lv max
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Re: Making PVP/PK/APK more interesting in s3
« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2017, 10:18:58 am »
I thought the definition of a can was a hollow cylinder used to contain stuff? Or as a verb meaning the permitting to do something?

At the current moment I see no possible way to make PvP/PK/APK interesting this season with loot drop off. Of course you can still grief, and the grief is abundant at the moment with loot drop off!

Keep the game on comrades!
« Last Edit: September 05, 2017, 10:20:49 am by zekromo »
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Kaso

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Re: Making PVP/PK/APK more interesting in s3
« Reply #13 on: September 05, 2017, 12:17:48 pm »
I don´t see the connection between "loot" and "good PvP".

Looking at all those PvP computer games out there... From Counter Strike to Star Craft, from Battlefield to League of Legends... there is nothing comparable to "full loot". And those games still attract PvP oriented players.

So, please spare me with equating "good PvP" with "full loot". Those are things which have nothing in common with each other.

Slowhand

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Re: Making PVP/PK/APK more interesting in s3
« Reply #14 on: September 05, 2017, 06:31:06 pm »
I don´t see the connection between "loot" and "good PvP".

But others might. For example I do like to go out to farm and quest more in a full loot environment than no, and I don't even like PvP in this game.

Looking at all those PvP computer games out there... From Counter Strike to Star Craft, from Battlefield to League of Legends... there is nothing comparable to "full loot". And those games still attract PvP oriented players.

So, please spare me with equating "good PvP" with "full loot". Those are things which have nothing in common with each other.

Comparing FOnline PvP with CS, SC, Battlefiled or LoL is like comparing rock-paper-scissors to a basketball game.