Bg vs SG

[Lackey]

Can anyone list some actual PvP benefits of using small guns over big guns at this point?

Negligible stuff like "carry weight" or "ease of crafting" need not apply.

Apart from sniping I really can't think of a single reason. I see you faggots lobbying for "Single shot or short burst LSW" so if that ever comes about, then SG won't even have sniping.

Give me some reasons NOT to delete my small guns characters, because that is the state of the game right now.

[Perteks]

Please leave that game ok?

SG snipers and bursters are ok right now. BG have bigger dmg but they are slower and mostly weaker (less hp/resist) than SG burster.

SG snipers are good right now they purpose is to fight on distance

[Lackey]

BG have bigger dmg but they are slower and mostly weaker (less hp/resist) than SG burster.

Okay this is your only actual argument, because if you had any reading comprehension, you would know I had said "Apart from sniping"

So the only content to your post, is an outright lie. Show me how a BG character is any "slower" than a SG character. The m60 is the only weapon IN THE GAME that has any movement modifiers. The only reason a BG character would have less resist is because they opted to do more damage and took a bonus ranged damage over 1 rank of toughness.

[Nark]

Wat. The only BG in the game that impedes movement at all vs a Small Gun is the M60, and weaker is also not true, tons of BGs have Tough/Even Tougher and 3 LGs, you don't need BRD to rip people to shreds with an Avenger, it only helps.

The only difference between an SG burster and a BG burster is the skill they have tagged and 1 point of STR, they can be built just as tanky as one another, but BGs are just better because that's how this game is.

You don't do breach & clear IRL with a fucking helicopter mounted minigun, but because of their one-hexing ability and full speed running they excel at it and small guns get the shit end of the stick again. All BGs except Flamer, LSW and Bozar should force walking, to repurpose them towards camping/suppressive play rather than running around and being overly versatile (which is what Small Guns should be for). Then the LSW should be changed to have a Single & Aimed Shot and Bozar's 3 round bursts.

Huge heavy hitting BGs should sit their ass down and wait for the enemy, not breach a building and instagib a dude frantically bursting him three times with a Pancor Jackhammer hoping he doesn't get close enough to one hex him.

[Perteks]

Good BG burster build deal around 130 dmg and need 5-6 ap for burst
Good SG burster build deal around 100 dmg and need 4-5 ap for burst

Slower means more ap for attack.
And yes bg hex>sg hex

I don't say you need all of brd but mostly bg have it because its give some real dmg boost compare to SG

40 bullets vs 15 bullets per burst

[baskila]

All BGs except Flamer, LSW and Bozar should force walking, to repurpose them towards camping/suppressive play rather than running around and being overly versatile (which is what Small Guns should be for).

Actually why not, would be interesting to test it at least.

[Lackey]

Good SG burster build deal around 100 dmg and need 4-5 ap for burst

A more realistic calculation is around 80 damage a burst at greater than 2 hex.
In a world where anyone worth a damn has minimal 280 hp, 80 damage bursts require 4 bursts. 4 burst at 4 ap a burst is 16 ap.

Now a BG doing 130 damage kills a 280 hp enemy in 3 bursts, at 5 ap a burst that is 15 ap. Now which is faster?

You are wrong on almost every level

[mrx]

I just suggest to run BG in case of PvP character.

The same issue is with EW spammer - it is almost unbeatable in turn mode - best possible farmer, easy to exp, PvE monster, The GOD of turn based combat, but.... pussy in PvP

U decide (u can combine SG with fastshot getting some advantage in Turn based for example)

[Perteks]

I just saying from exprience not calculations.
P90 is more likely around 80-90 dmg but its has even less ap per burst. I tested only clean p90.

If you can't deal around 100 dmg into enemy then your build is just bad

[Lackey]

I just saying from exprience not calculations.
P90 is more likely around 80-90 dmg but its has even less ap per burst. I tested only clean p90.

If you can't deal around 100 dmg into enemy then your build is just bad

16-19(1/3 # of bullets that can hit at greater than 1 hex)(2/3 (ap ammo mod)(1-.(.40+.15-.35) (.4 from camk2 .15 from toughness/even tougher -.35 from ap ammo))(.95 chance to hit)(40 shots in a burst)

the 16-19 damage is the 13-16 base with +4 from BRD and +3 from MRD then -4 from toughness/tougher and armor DT after ap mod.

This results in a damage range from 108-128 in a realistic scenario where the firer with an avenger has all 3 damage modifiers and the target has combat armor mk 2 with both toughness perks.

Compare this to a xl70e (best sg burst)

23-43(1/3 # of bullets that can hit at greater than 1 hex)(2/3 (ap ammo mod)(1-.(.40+.15-.35) (.4 from camk2 .15 from toughness/even tougher -.35 from ap ammo))(.95 chance to hit)(15 shots in a burst)

which is 58-109 damage range in the EXACT SAME SCENARIO.
Crits are excluded because this is to be considered a non crit build. However the fact that a BG is firing more rounds, the CHANCE of one of its bullets being a crit is 12/40=30% more likely.

SO take the average of the damage ranges
(108+128)/2= 118 damage for a big gun per burst
(58-109)/2= 84 damage a burst per small gun

SO realistically a BG CAN will take 3 bursts to kill an opponent
Small guns on the other hand, will take 4.
again 15 ap for big guns
16 ap for small guns

The damage per ap ratio is  118/6=19.66 for BG and 84/5=16.8 for SG (BRoF and not using -ap weapons)
This is how the numbers fucking work you idiot. So before you speak next time do some math.
*edit* to correct for excluding toughness perks in DR. I realized I left it out on my way to class.
also the correction to the #of bullets in xl70e burst thanks to mojuk

[jacky]

Not this shit again

[mrx]

(...)
This is how the numbers fucking work you idiot. So before you speak next time do some math.

[Nark]

Not this shit again

Oh no, math and logic!

[Furior]

1st-SG doesnt require as much strength as BG, so you can save that Special points and use it in other stat.
2nd-BRD isnt a must have if you are using SG, so you can choose other perks to boost your resistances.

If i wanted to deliver damage, i wouldnt make a SG burster, id go for BG. If i just wanted to be tanky, id probably tag SG.

[Lackey]

Now walk with me while I take you on a learning adventure.
A reasonable person might ask, "well if only 1/3 of the bullets are hitting, what happens when the total number of shots fired isn't evenly divided by 3?"

Good question, the result is rounded down. 40/3=13.333 the game treats this as 13 bullets hitting
12/3 = 4. So 13 avenger bullets hit, and 4 xl70e hit.

"What about 95% accuracy? a bullet doesn't do 95% damage as the formula you provided suggests."
A bullet either hits or misses so 5% of your bullets will miss or 1/20

So lets include this in a new, reduced, formula:
AVENGER
16-19(13)(2/3)(0.80)= 110-132 damage of first a burst then,
16-19(12)(2/3)(0.80)=102-122 damage on second burst to account for the 1 in 20 to miss then in the final, killing burst
16-19(13)(2/3)(0.80)=110-132 for a sum of 322-386 damage or an average of 354

23-43(4)(2/3)(0.80)=49-92 on first burst
23-43(4)(2/3)(0.80)=49-92 on second burst
23-43(4)(2/3)(0.80)=49-92 on third burst
23-43(4)(2/3)(0.80)=49-92 on fourth burst the potentially killing burst range of 196-368 with an average of 282 damage

This means that on 4 consecutive perfect damage rolls for 16 straight bullets you will kill a 280 hp player in 4 bursts. In 3 bursts with 12 consecutive bullets with perfect damage you do 276 damage, only severely wounding them.

Should you get bad damage rolls you will potentially have to burst 5 times for a sum total of 20 AP to kill your average PvPer...