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Topic: Stonewall, Heavy Handed, and Rocket Launchers  (Read 5134 times)

Rando

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Stonewall, Heavy Handed, and Rocket Launchers
« on: September 26, 2013, 11:30:04 am »
I propose that Stonewall completely negate, or have a chance to negate, knockdowns from Rocket Launchers and Heavy Handed punches. Simple as that.

Lackey

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Re: Stonewall, Heavy Handed, and Rocket Launchers
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2013, 11:36:21 am »
BLASPHEMER! WHO DARES SUGGEST A BALANCE MECHANISM THAT NEGATIVELY EFFECT THE BIG GUNS GODS!

Honestly though, stonewall is useless right now. I wouldn't mind it actually serving the purpose it was intended for.

Nark

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Re: Stonewall, Heavy Handed, and Rocket Launchers
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2013, 11:54:52 am »
A chance to negate Rocket & Heavy Handed knockdowns on Stonewall would be good.

Rockets as a crowd control method is all well and good, but because of how easy it is to build around it and every other BG, and how tanky you can make them, it is by far the best choice for a crowd control character and has no downside compared to sniping for knockdowns and crippled limbs.

Every TC now has Rockets in much larger numbers than Snipers, so it should be obvious to anyone who has been playing the game.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2013, 11:57:59 am by Nark »
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baskila

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Re: Stonewall, Heavy Handed, and Rocket Launchers
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2013, 11:56:02 am »
I propose that Stonewall completely negate, or have a chance to negate, knockdowns from Rocket Launchers and Heavy Handed punches. Simple as that.
I had this sad experience when a Heavy Handed char punched my by surprise and didn't stop till I was dead. He simply kept knocking me down over and over again and I couldn't do anything about it. I have Stonewall btw.

It is unbalanced atm as there shouldn't be a situation when someone can't do absolutely nothing.
Similar situation is with Turbo Plasma Rifle where a player can't do anything as the guy wielding TPR can shoot for 1ap being able to kill anyone in one turn.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2013, 12:01:51 pm by baskila »

Rando

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Re: Stonewall, Heavy Handed, and Rocket Launchers
« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2013, 09:29:42 pm »
I propose that Stonewall completely negate, or have a chance to negate, knockdowns from Rocket Launchers and Heavy Handed punches. Simple as that.
I had this sad experience when a Heavy Handed char punched my by surprise and didn't stop till I was dead. He simply kept knocking me down over and over again and I couldn't do anything about it. I have Stonewall btw.

It is unbalanced atm as there shouldn't be a situation when someone can't do absolutely nothing.
Similar situation is with Turbo Plasma Rifle where a player can't do anything as the guy wielding TPR can shoot for 1ap being able to kill anyone in one turn.

I agree, TB is laughably broken at the moment due to these bullshit specialized TB builds. But that's a discussion for another thread. I'd appreciate a response from Kilgore on the topic of this thread.

3.14

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Re: Stonewall, Heavy Handed, and Rocket Launchers
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2013, 05:22:18 am »
So you got pwned by a boxer from 1 hex and that's not fair? If he had a minugun/xl/p90 he'd kill ya just the same, with no way of reacting on your part - it would just take one burst not ~10 hits
I may be broke, but I ain't broken (just twisted).

jacky

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Re: Stonewall, Heavy Handed, and Rocket Launchers
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2013, 09:02:14 am »
Basklia ew spammers are good only in tb. Who the fuck care about Tb pvp? Tb is bout ap and cover. Hth are fine like they are, they have to be very strong in short distance and if you are stupid/unlucky enough to let him come to you, you should blame yourself not game

Rando

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Re: Stonewall, Heavy Handed, and Rocket Launchers
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2013, 11:47:59 am »
So you got pwned by a boxer from 1 hex and that's not fair? If he had a minugun/xl/p90 he'd kill ya just the same, with no way of reacting on your part - it would just take one burst not ~10 hits

So you're saying Stonewall, a perk meant PURELY to give you immunity/resistance to knockdowns/knockouts, should not be doing so?

jacky

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Re: Stonewall, Heavy Handed, and Rocket Launchers
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2013, 12:38:52 pm »
Yes! Stonewall is giving you 50% resistance to ko if you Have 10en. Hth without right weapon Have 50% to ko you. With mega power fist he Have 100% to ko you to death

Next Time be smart and rember they Have perk which is giving Them 50% chance to avoid your 1hex burst :)

It is very simple:if you let hth guy to run next to you, you Have very high chance he will kill you :)

« Last Edit: September 28, 2013, 12:42:37 pm by jacky »

Rando

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Re: Stonewall, Heavy Handed, and Rocket Launchers
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2013, 01:22:15 pm »
Yes! Stonewall is giving you 50% resistance to ko if you Have 10en. Hth without right weapon Have 50% to ko you. With mega power fist he Have 100% to ko you to death

Next Time be smart and rember they Have perk which is giving Them 50% chance to avoid your 1hex burst :)

It is very simple:if you let hth guy to run next to you, you Have very high chance he will kill you :)

I know how hand to hand works, and this is all beside the point. Stonewall should be affecting these knockdowns as well, but it ISN'T. That's what this thread is about.

Imrin

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Re: Stonewall, Heavy Handed, and Rocket Launchers
« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2013, 09:01:54 pm »
Mostly I agree with the idea of providing some counter to the knockback effect of rocket launchers. Currently, the weapon doesn't do very much damage. Comparatively, it's pathetic, and only viable due to the range and knockback effect.

One potential solution (although not necessarily meant as a solution to rocket spam), as you suggested, is to improve stonewall to allow a specialized build to effectively counter the use of rocket launchers.

As a prediction, the advantage to the rocket launcher to the more effective bursting big guns is the reduced potential of friendly fire, which makes them far more viable in large groups, which does have the added advantage of juggling single or entire groups of players similar to the effect of Heavy Handed/melee knockdown builds, but would not necessarily be the main advantage. If we assess that adding a much higher chance of hitting targets between you and your actual target with the rocket launcher, which would add a chance of friendly fire near equivalent to that of other, bursting BGs, the rocket launcher loses its advantage of "rocket juggling" in PvP in large groups due to it losing its ability to be used en masse. Furthermore, the need of a specialized build --with one less perk choice due to one being dedicated to Stonewall-- defeats the purpose of making Stonewall prevent rocket launcher knockdowns. Although I definitely do agree that the perk should function like that merely because that's the purpose of its existence, something more conducive to the goal of the perk would be more productive.

Also, although not necessary, a perk which prevents the knockdown of a rocket blast should also prevent other knockdowns, just so it doesn't become counter-intuitive, as a measure of good game design (as opposed to whatever the 2238 devs were doing, not sure "bad design" does it justice.) This would provide a huge disadvantage to the already disadvantaged pancor jackhammer and would effectively eliminate the viability of heavy handed entirely. For this, changing Stonewall to something more specific to rocket launchers, or perhaps making it a support perk with high endurance + high SG or EW requirement (to avoid BG users simply taking it and changing nothing except for making heavy handed and pancors worthless), instead of the general "prevent knockdown" would promote better balance.

TL;DR: I agree that stonewall should serve its intended purpose provided that it should exist at all. I disagree that it should exist, as even changing it won't make it a viable counter to rocket launchers. In addition or instead, rockets should also have a much higher chance to hit targets between the user and the target, which prevents its use en masse to rocket juggle. Similarly, it would make it function much more similarly to other BGs, and its main advantage would become a reasonable counter to the popular low-hp sniper.

I would personally prefer Stonewall be made into a more specialized rocket-counter support perk for SG and EW, just so its use doesn't impede on already difficult-to-do viable SG or EW builds, at least compared to the brainless ease of viable BG builds.

Rando

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Re: Stonewall, Heavy Handed, and Rocket Launchers
« Reply #11 on: October 02, 2013, 04:35:21 pm »
Shameless bump in hopes of some Kilgore/other developer love.

Nice_Boat

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Re: Stonewall, Heavy Handed, and Rocket Launchers
« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2013, 05:07:17 pm »
Wait, have you suggested a perk change mid-session? This isn't even worth a comment, as literally every second player character would be screwed out of viability if this got implemented.

Besides, this game is lacking in terms of reliable crowd control and there's no reason to nerf it with a weapon that simply lacks punch. If you died to rocket spam or bazooka rush, it's your fault, the game shouldn't be changed because of that.
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kill n die

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Re: Stonewall, Heavy Handed, and Rocket Launchers
« Reply #13 on: October 02, 2013, 05:55:36 pm »
Basklia ew spammers are good only in tb. Who the fuck care about Tb pvp? Tb is bout ap and cover. Hth are fine like they are, they have to be very strong in short distance and if you are stupid/unlucky enough to let him come to you, you should blame yourself not game
There is more people that care about TB and dont give a single f... about TC then those in other side...Another reward worh comment of yours,congrats.

What doesn't kill you,makes you stronger...

Nice_Boat

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Re: Stonewall, Heavy Handed, and Rocket Launchers
« Reply #14 on: October 02, 2013, 06:04:56 pm »
There's probably a lot of TB action going on, but it's predominantly PvE and doesn't really affect the balance of the server. In all honesty, it'd be better to remove TB altogether than to balance PvP around this mode simply because of all the development effort that already went into RT and because large scale PvP isn't possible in TB.
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