FOnline: Reloaded
General => General Game Discussion => Topic started by: Nice_Boat on October 17, 2013, 01:50:25 am
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I have created this thread because I've noticed that group PvP has been virtually monopolized by a limited number of experienced teams that had years to hone their tactics and recruit their members on 2238. Kudos to ARWH for bringing in a breath of fresh air, we miss your players on TC, come back :3
Anyway, I've been wondering what's keeping PvE players from joining the battles in the north. Town Control is a great feature that makes this game truly unique and I think they're missing quite a lot of the fun that you can get out of playing this game. I'd appreciate it if some of you, PvE players, told us what exactly is preventing you from doing what we do. That way, we could probably work out a solution as a community (preferably without any dev intervention) so that more teams will be able to fight, enjoy the game and make it more interesting and social for everyone... because trust me, you'll have more interaction with the other players in a PvP gang than in any Radscorpion/Enclave hunting squad.
My assumption would be that many people would love to try PvP, but can't do so because:
- they fear of losing their equipment
- they assume they can't compete with the leading gangs and they simply give up because building a strong group is too hard.
I'd like to hear what could help you in overcoming these odds - guides, direct help, coaching, something else? Let's discuss this issue, because I feel like it's starting to divide the playerbase into two separate worlds that rarely interact with one another and I'd hate to see that happen again.
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>Spend half an hour gathering materials for weapons, ammunition, and other goods.
>Lose it in two seconds during PvP because of a AP whoring Big Guns character with Life Giver x2.
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>Spend half an hour gathering materials for weapons, ammunition, and other goods.
>Lose it in two seconds during PvP because of a AP whoring Big Guns character with Life Giver x2.
This isn't true. Most PvE players should be wealthy enough to afford private mines at this point, which means they should have access to a massive pool of resources. This means that you could have a day of farming/PvE and spend the rest of the week doing medium-intensity PvP without running out of stuff - and that's assuming you get killed a lot. I've been running on a single day of crafting for two weeks now, there's no reason why other players can't do it too.
The point I'm trying to make is that some of the barriers aren't even real, they're simple misconceptions. On the other hand, some problems are probably very real - but perhaps we could work around them to create a working solution that would enable new fighters to enter the fray.
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Doesn't change much. Even if I had a steady supply of materials I wouldn't go around losing it all. I dislike playing with people who boast about their 'builds' or 'how good they are' anyways (Pretty much every PvP player I've ever met, I mean look at BBS).
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Well, if you dislike competitive play in general, there's no helping it, nobody's going to force your hand after all. However, I think there are many people that would like to try, but there's something stopping them - I'm more interested in their opinions.
Besides, you might want to reconsider - I mean you'll lose resources if you PvP regardless of how good you are, but the game allows you to run on a very limited amount of supplies for days and the teamplay alone really makes it worth checking out.
And just to make it 100% clear, I mean no disrespect to players who want to focus strictly on PvE - this game will probably accommodate your playstyle too once the dungeon updates start rolling out.
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I just want to say i love this thread. I think this topic is very important and i really admire your approach to it. Nice_Boat, thank you for starting this!
I do only PvE but not by choice. In some cases (like with me) it has to do with when we log in. When some of us log in, most have logged out, leaving very few active players in-game. I get in IRC and find a few guys but most are silent. I don't expect this can change easily - just need tons more people to discover this game.
Additionally, i think your two guesses are certainly accurate for most of us; i don't want to lose gear in 3 seconds, and i am sure my fighters are less than optimal, creating a no-win scenario against the seasons vets. So yes i want to PvP, but until i can i do enjoy getting ready. I have figured out a good way to hunt lockers so i have some good blueprints (including CA). I power-mine for 2 straight hours sometimes. I think i have almost 1000 Rot Guts lol. I have 35 Safe Houses shared between all 4 of my characters so far, and 1 Outpost where i keep all my maps. I guess about 350k caps (which took me a long time solo). I am organized. I feel like i'm doing well but...
I would need help from a vet to get some optimal fighter builds going. I'm more than willing to level them and provide all my own gear. I don't need access to anyone's bases either. So please count me as a PvP-willing player who just can't do PvP yet.
Oh also, i know some players refuse to do voice chat. Voice chat is however mandatory for most (if not all) serious teams. I will do it but some won't.
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Well, who's gonna farm SS for the PvP gangs???
other: I don't have gang to PvP with
2nd: If I try to go rambo, I get raped by sniper, some sneaker, 3 BG tanks, other sniper, some guy with Rocket launcher, etc.
like henry said, I refuse to voice chat :D
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Hi Nice_Boat,
I don't post on forums much - prefer to read and lurk and get what information I need on my own, without stirring things up too much. Your post asking for input is one of the most earnest and honest I've read, though, so I'll pop out of the shadows for this one.
I've been a long-time FOnline player, mostly on the old 2238 server, a bit of other small servers, and most recently here on Reloaded. Each time, it was purely for PvE experience. It's not really because I'm a non-competitive player (I do enjoy other online games which are designed around competition); it's mainly because the way I enjoy FOnline is by playing as part of a group of friends just trying to survive the wastes. It's easier and more immersing to do this in PvE than it is in PvP.
Yes, the wasteland is harsh. But that's why I play with a small group of trusted friends. More people means more complications, and while I'm sure Town Control is a great experience for those predisposed to it, I perceive it to take too much control away from me. I'm already worried enough as it is about random encounters on the world map and wandering in to another player or vice versa.
My understanding of it also includes the idea that min-maxing is necessary to be successful in PvP. I simply don't have the time, the desire, nor the math skills to tweak a character to statistical perfection. Gearing up is another thing entirely; it's acceptable that I'll lose my equipment and inventory upon death, that's why we should make use of the banks and tents/bases. But to walk into a battle carrying your best gear while being aware that your chances of survival are slim to none? That just seems like a lot of stress.
I guess, in short, I feel like PvP goes against what I expect out of my FOnline experience. Having a job and family, I don't get a lot of time to play games. FOnline scratches that itch of wanting to play a Fallout-like game with a group of like-minded friends, and we get the most fun out of it when cruising around in the relatively relaxed PvE mode.
Now, what would make me more open to PvP/Town Control? Here are a couple ideas.
First is to follow the Guild Wars route of offering an entirely separate PvP character creation option. I don't have to work my way up to max level, I can tweak my character exactly the way I want, and I get to jump into PvP right away without worrying about messing up. It's a consequence-free way to offer the full PvP experience of competing via player skill, tactics, reflexes, and other non-mechanical traits. After all, that's the core of PvP, right? You're fully satisfied - even if you lose - when you know you and your enemy were fighting on equal terms, and that if you mess up, it was because of a mistake you had full control over. Not because of some stupid thing like your gun jamming in the middle of the fight, or your opponent's armor having +1 more AC than yours.
Second is if we suffered no gear loss for dying in PvP. This is much more controversial and I don't think the idea would fly with many (or any) of the current PvP players, but if I'm not into hardcore PvP anyway, I don't want my unoptimized, undergeared, underleveled character losing everything he has when he's sure to die when I participate in PvP. The barrier to entry is quite high in that regard, and it feels like - even if I tried making a dedicated PvP character - I'll just be bullied around.
Hope this helps!
PS. As I was typing this out, I realized I hadn't mentioned at all the fact that my friends and I live in Southeast Asia. Our pings measured between 300-500ms in 2238, we haven't measured how bad it gets with Reloaded but for sure there's going to be noticeable delay. That, coupled with time zone differences, make it less than ideal to play PvP even if we wanted to.
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One of the reasons is that I'm a trader at heart and staying neutral helps with that. Another thing is that most of TC factions don't just stick to TC fights (we had a bite of that at the mutants event), their playstyle is being an ass and murdering people for gain which just doesn't work for me. I play as I feel, trying to be decent and killing only when necessary or deserved. Even though I can imagine participating in event-raping isn't mandatory for every member (compared to TC which probably is) I wouldn't like to be associated with such a group.
Having that said, I just finished a pvp character and I will give it a try, but knowing BBS's playstyle we won't meet at the same side, it just doesn't work for me.
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No pvp can be done by groups of noobs. They may try once, but no more. The current PvP players do not give a chance. Ill give you an example. I go alone looking for PvP and find 1 guy, I killed him, Ok. 5 Min laters, the same guy I killed and 3 more rushed me. Whats wrong with you? Why PvP players cannot be fair?
To make TC you need at least 8 players, non-pvp groups arent so big (3-5 people moreless?). Then we have another problem, if you try to make a group and recruit new ppl, they will rape your base...
Next problem is that many ppl who dont do PvP are Noobs who eventually try PvP with their unlvled-shitty builds (BG+Finesse, 9 St sniper,etc...) and without the proper gear and got raped instantly. So they start thinking they dont have any chance and give up.
Also, when I try something I usually have to leave becuase the militia is there, and they cant be killed with a crit build and thats what I use.
One thing Id really like but will never happen(cannot be done): Small teams, 6 players maximum. Not allowing teams to be bigger than that. Battles would be awesome, much more teams to make pvp. Maybe 3,4,5 teams fighting in the same town. And players would play a bigger role in the team, when you are 15 ppl fight it doesnt really matter what 1 person do.
Nice post btw.
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Not yet leveled my ape-char.
But thats the main issue for me, don't like leveling at all. My main char Andr3aZ is a mix out of Crafting and SG.
And thats basically my fonline life. Was on 2238, same on reloaded. I go around exploring/scavengeing, kill npcs, loot stuff, mine, craft, trade, stay out of trouble. I have fun at that and the leveling occurs automatically.
With a pvp char i have to grind encs, and i really don't like that.
I know that with no hard-cap on lvl any PVP Char can have 100 Repair and 100 Science, but it obviously takes long, as you wont give your PVP char higher int - which brings me back to the disliked leveling. Also, if you want to level a PVP char with crafting, you have to boost repair or science and with the lack of skillpoints in your weapon skills, you might miss perks.
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In a balanced server there should be plenty of things to do if you're PvE or if you're PvP or even if you are hybrid in your play style.
Private PvE missions for those who want it, ala TLA MK2s Den, Navarro missions (I'm not saying that's enough because it's not, the more the more varied and interested the game becomes)
TC is ok for PvP, but that's all there is at the moment, the WM encounter rate is really, really low for reasons unknown to me. PvP on this server is boring after you do a bit of it for a week straight up. No variation yet again.
No hybrids for those inclined exist as of yet, Dungeons will be a welcome introduction but there needs to be more.
And i am sure plenty of people would like to work on new maps or features or help others working on something, but i've seen no formal request for help or any of these things so we are just at the mercy of the GMs workflow and time available. It all seems very closed off, and yes i'm aware there is a suggestion forum but that's all it is...suggestions, nothing proactive for those who want to be proactive.
Basically this server needs to find a bigger team and find some features that make it truly the best FOnline iteration to date while trying to retain all the best features from the older or no longer active servers, because there is no need to try and re-invent the wheel when the work has already been done before to some degree. And that there is the pitfall this game suffers over and over again, you got to ask if you really want this to be the best FOnline to date or not, because if you do, fucking do it. If you don't, make it known to the players so they don't waste their time.
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I have created this thread because I've noticed that group PvP has been virtually monopolized by a limited number of experienced teams that had years to hone their tactics and recruit their members on 2238. Kudos to ARWH for bringing in a breath of fresh air, we miss your players on TC, come back :3
Anyway, I've been wondering what's keeping PvE players from joining the battles in the north. Town Control is a great feature that makes this game truly unique and I think they're missing quite a lot of the fun that you can get out of playing this game.
We got a small faction consisting of 3 players. We would love to participate in TC, but the problem is we dont have enough manpower.
Recruiting new people is almost impossible in this game because you cannot trust a single person.
Participating in TC with only 3 players will just lead to all of us dying, losing our improved gear (which we spent hours on creating), and then ragequitting the game forever because we will blame it on the missing manpower.
On top of that you cannot even start TC without 5 players, which doesnt help either.
The game discourages people from doing low manpower PvP. 3 will never win against 5.
Its either have enough manpower, or fuck you. The game fucks all the small factions in the ass due to this rule.
If gear was easier to create we would probably still visit towns that are being TCed, but as is, we are farming several hours, crafting several hours for improved gear, if we can lose it in a minute or two by going up against faction that has many more players than us (meaning we will definitely lose) we are just dooming ourselves to even more farm time.
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1. RT.
At best I can describe realtime combat as akward. The frantic clicking all over the place while fighting zoom because the camera got stuck, watching my character lag-moonwalk, cycling weapon mods that changed to burst after reloading when you want to make an aimed shot -no, just no. It's a bit harder for me then for most other players because I can only use a trackball. The only time I use RT is when using my sneaker - it's always over after two shots, if she didn't kill in 2 shots she's dead (low hp, leather armor or jacket).
2. Voice chat.
I don't own a mic and I want to keep it that way.
3. Not a fair fight.
I don't play that much and I don't have 500 sets of armor/gun/ammo/drugs in every tent, but I expect TC players have. If I die and drop my gear I lose 10% of everything I've got.
I can come with a crafted pistol and used CA, others will come with gaus rifles, implants and power armor.
Teams can have any number of players, 5vs 15 is not ok... and there's militia and mercs.
4. Rock, paper, minigun.
I've only seen movies but it looks like you need to have an avenger tank or a bazooka tank build to win. I don't like the BG play style and I don't like clone wars ( well the Genndy Tartakovsky version was ok)
5. Reward.
Owning a town gives some random, mediocre items (+lotto-win-łow chance for PA?) and a option to abuse militia. Yay? That's it? Why would I want that?
6. The people
I know it's not fair to say that all TC players are complete and utter d*ckheads, but some are and they are making a fine job of busting the reputation for others.
I don't see myself in TC, maybe some other team pvp mode would be nice? One with ad hoc teams, where everybody starts with no gear and there are no npc? Like domination - you need to take control of mines and crafting stations to make weapons and armor for your team to kill the other team.
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@3.141592 Noone will come with Gauss/PA to TC, because it's too much to lose. The common gear are CA Mk2 that are easily farmable and weapons that you can easily craft.
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@3.141592 Noone will come with Gauss/PA to TC, because it's too much to lose.
That's not true. Wait 2 or 3 months and players with gauss pistols will be almost as common as snipers with sniper rifles.
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Kudos to ARWH for bringing in a breath of fresh air, we miss your players on TC, come back :3
Alot of us are just taking a temporary break now, waiting for the big update then we'll be back.
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@3.141592 Noone will come with Gauss/PA to TC, because it's too much to lose.
That's not true. Wait 2 or 3 months and players with gauss pistols will be almost as common as snipers with sniper rifles.
Sure, I am talking about the current situation though.
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First off this thread is very interesting and it's nice to read people's opinions on that matter.
I love the fact that there is PvP in the Fallout Universe. I had a blast when I discovered the little arena beneath the Bar Casino in Hub. I thought it's a real thing.
(But at least it's a good example for why it's nearly impossible to have 1vs1 sized fights. Just imagine a Minigunner against a Gunslinger with pistols in such an enviroment.)
I love the idea of Hinkley but it should be possible to battle with random groups, no friendly fire and don't losing your stuff. Just have some fun and get some information about your own build and if it's capable of doing well in PvP or not. AND it should be more advertised plus some convenience features. When it comes to PvP in almost every game "easy access" stands on top of the feature-list.
I kind of agree with Ryvaeus on the "Guild Wars approach", but I think it isn't even necessary.
Anyway, you're asking for a solution to get more players interested in TC and I don't think that will happen when it comes to people like me or some others. Because it's a game mode for Clans and not everyone likes to be in a Clan or has time for this kind of appointment. The problem I see here is the games player count.
At the end of the day I'm for more options for PvP.
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I should add one thing to what i said:
When there is a wipe, large teams get back up and running quickly, compared with solo PvE players. That however does not drive PvE players to join a big team. Instead, they quit. They already went through all the work to get well-established (despite the wasteland's harshness) and then it's all gone for a major update.
At wipes, devs could run a routine to preserve player data and that would fix this. It would be a pain to do, I'm sure, but doable. The changes in mechanics do not prevent this - they only make it tougher.
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Kudos to ARWH for bringing in a breath of fresh air, we miss your players on TC, come back :3
Alot of us are just taking a temporary break now, waiting for the big update then we'll be back.
This has been said before, but this guy doesn't speak for ARWH
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Maybe some of the smaller groups/loners could use one of the npc factions as a platform to group up for pvp actions. Some project could be attempted, maybe people who wanted to participate could all join VC for example and use that for name colorizing and a spot to meet up safely. If enough players were interested they could have a TS server or something like that too.
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Maybe some of the smaller groups/loners could use one of the npc factions as a platform to group up for pvp actions. Some project could be attempted, maybe people who wanted to participate could all join VC for example and use that for name colorizing and a spot to meet up safely. If enough players were interested they could have a TS server or something like that too.
That is a neat idea - and it took my brain to cause a bigger idea like "lets do it like: Gangs can ally with an NPC faction, so they can TC as Mercs for an NPC faction"
So if a gang thinks they are outnumbered, they just ally an NPC faction which has more members. If they don't like a gang allied with an NPC faction, they just switch to another or leave, so they can fight them. To prevent abuse, only gang leaders can ally their gang with an NPC faction and that should have a long cooldown, so there is no switching all the time.
If Gang ABC now allys with enclave and Gang XYZ allys with enclave too, name coloring for the other gang is set to a color representing allies.
When TC is started, there is no more "Gang ABC is taking Modoc", it now is "Enclave is taking Modoc" - now NPC allied or independant gangs can come fight the Enclave ones, and other Enclave gangs can come to assist their allys.
For loot: Every gang has an empty locker in their base, which gets filled with the TC loot. For example if Enclave takes a town, every participating Enclave gang in that TC-Session gets loot spawned in their locker, located in their base.
Now there is a fatal flaw in this system I can't find a solution for:
Shooting your allys for betrayal reasons (make second gang, ally NPC faction, run in there and suprise kill your "allys", logout and roll in with your real gang.) Maybe make allying only possible with good reputation and shooting an ally causes reputation drop - if rep drops to -insertNumberHere the NPC faction automatically unallys the gang. But I know this playerbase, people would find ways to cause other gangs to gain negative rep for example running in front of rocketlaunchers or troll around hardcore as they know they can't be shot because that would cause the shooters gang rep drop.
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Yeah but that requires work from the developers and I'm sure they are very busy, but maybe in the future. As it is right now players themselves could organize something with the existing npc factions in the meantime.
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Some people just don't like competitive gameplay. Deal with it.
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Some people just don't like competitive gameplay. Deal with it.
I think we are talking about those who would like to do PvP and dont do it.
When there is a wipe, large teams get back up and running quickly, compared with solo PvE players. That however does not drive PvE players to join a big team. Instead, they quit. They already went through all the work to get well-established (despite the wasteland's harshness) and then it's all gone for a major update.
I play alone and in 8 hours I already have "good" items and a lvled character.
At wipes, devs could run a routine to preserve player data and that would fix this. It would be a pain to do, I'm sure, but doable. The changes in mechanics do not prevent this - they only make it tougher.
Wipes must delete all. If there werent wipes I wouldnt play. I like starting from 0 and get all I need (and dont tell me to delete my character, its not the same thing). And wipes bring life to the server, each time theres a wipe server can easily have +300 players
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Hmmm... maybe the small gangs would be interested in paying non-gang players to act as mercenaries, temporary gang members just for the time of taking over a city?
If someone told me "take this gun and this armor, stand here and shoot everyone and if you do well theres 5000 caps for you after the fight" - I wouldn't say no ;)
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If someone told me "take this gun and this armor, stand here and shoot everyone and if you do well theres 5000 caps for you after the fight" - I wouldn't say no ;)
It’s not that simple, if you are in a TC for the first time, you will actually do more harm than good. It takes some practice and experience before you will become a valuable team member. I’ve seen many actions where one inexperienced guy caused chaos and due to that chaos the team was defeated, just because of that. Not many people realize but it’s really hard work before you can say you are valuable for your team. Some people, however, will never get on that level and keep playing terribly even after years of practice.
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There always has to be a first time... but isn't this about geting more players into TC? If new players are not welcome (because we could and will suck), then what's the point?
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I agree with you, I’m just explaining the current situation. This is actually never ending story, PvP needs to be entertaining for the newcomer, otherwise he will leave.
Let’s say I’m new to the game and I don’t speak Polish, so I cannot join BBS. So I have basically two choices, to join TTTLA/C88 or to join Hawks+friends. If I join Hawks, nobody will really care that I can’t play properly, since half of people there play for lulz, they don’t care about competition that much. Great. But the problem is, if I don’t get any victory after some fights, I might get frustrated, you need to be a really hardcore player to survive in that faction. Possible threat of quitting the game for good is 85%.
Ok, now, let’s assume I joined C88. Great faction, helpful people everywhere, but as far as I am concerned, you need to follow many rules (which, I don’t say is anything bad) and it happens quite often that people don’t fit in for some reason. Basically you can’t rob bases, you can’t act like dick and many people find that too restrictive (these are btw probably the future recruits of hawks, again, that’s my theory and my opinion) and they are kicked or leave for not having any “fun”. Possible threat of quitting the game for good is 60%.
So as a conclusion if a newcomer wants to have some PvP, it’s very hard to join TC fights for him, because the background (joining some faction etc.) is too complicated. He can enjoy some Hinkley, some miners pwning in mines and maybe some TB action near SF. That’s it. I don’t really know how to fix this, but to me it seems that the whole faction concept is actually too restrictive - you can officially be in only one faction, so if there is a fight and you would love to join, you simply can’t because your faction isn’t ready for the fight. You have to wait till you gather some players, even organizing such event is a hard work. So we have 200 players online and only 20 fighting because 40 other guys who would love to fight can’t because they are not members of neither of fighting factions.
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I agree with you, I’m just explaining the current situation. This is actually never ending story, PvP needs to be entertaining for the newcomer, otherwise he will leave.
Let’s say I’m new to the game and I don’t speak Polish, so I cannot join BBS. So I have basically two choices, to join TTTLA/C88 or to join Hawks+friends. If I join Hawks, nobody will really care that I can’t play properly, since half of people there play for lulz, they don’t care about competition that much. Great. But the problem is, if I don’t get any victory after some fights, I might get frustrated, you need to be a really hardcore player to survive in that faction. Possible threat of quitting the game for good is 85%.
Ok, now, let’s assume I joined C88. Great faction, helpful people everywhere, but as far as I am concerned, you need to follow many rules (which, I don’t say is anything bad) and it happens quite often that people don’t fit in for some reason. Basically you can’t rob bases, you can’t act like dick and many people find that too restrictive (these are btw probably the future recruits of hawks, again, that’s my theory and my opinion) and they are kicked or leave for not having any “fun”. Possible threat of quitting the game for good is 60%.
So as a conclusion if a newcomer wants to have some PvP, it’s very hard to join TC fights for him, because the background (joining some faction etc.) is too complicated. He can enjoy some Hinkley, some miners pwning in mines and maybe some TB action near SF. That’s it. I don’t really know how to fix this, but to me it seems that the whole faction concept is actually too restrictive - you can officially be in only one faction, so if there is a fight and you would love to join, you simply can’t because your faction isn’t ready for the fight. You have to wait till you gather some players, even organizing such event is a hard work. So we have 200 players online and only 20 fighting because 40 other guys who would love to fight can’t because they are not members of neither of fighting factions.
This is exactly the problem. The faction-TC mechanic is too restrictive.
Im sure there are plenty of people that would love to fight in TC combat, but cannot due to having such small factions.
Me and my friends would like to participate, but we cant.
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If I were new player who actually wants to join TC (skipping total newb players, I presume player knows mechanics, is self sufficient and is after 'exploring the world' part of the game)
1. Make PVP build
2. Sit in hinkley, looking for as much free pvp as I can, getting buttraped ( in order to get pvp skills, find out that this build I made was complete crap )
3. Make another build ( trying to spot enemies stats from awarness( str, hp),dmg done,dmg received, occurence of critical hits etc., or simply asking someone from there if they would help in making new build )
4. Sit moar in hinkly, try rambo fights in north or new reno, try clearing militia from opposing gangs, then pking ( possibly getting better, less buttraped )
5. Meet people ( other players without gangs, players from other factions, possibly If im doing fine there, either I'm getting invitation to some better organised group, or I'll try to spot players that I find worthy and trying to make my own group )
6. Finally I'm in some (more or less) pvp oriented group
7. Prepare lots of stuff ( for other experienced/skilled/bigger groups )
8. Get into tc, and get raped again ( ur stuff drops here )
9. Repeat rambo,militia clearing, hinkly, tc, craft, make ur gang bigger, get experience, search for recruits or look for an alliance ( possibly with other groups like yours if this guide would be successfull )
10. Finally u're into pvp/tc oriented group with 8+ active players ready for TC.
As for idea for npc driven factions in tc:
- u still have problem with communication ( ts,mumble is rly a must in every competitive game )
- let's say I join your npc driven faction, we all agree to participate in TC, we go there then i'm shooting your back and taking your stuff, if will notice that u got trolled, u start complain/whine in game and on forums, my alt eventually gets kicked out, or u won't go with this alt again, chance of other mechanics abusing players is 100%, if not me someone else would do this
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2238 had a GM-driven PvP faction (NCR army), it didn't work and they ended up just getting their asses kicked and feeding everyone with loot despite having tweaked stats and free gear. You have to learn how to PvP and it takes some time, unfortunately for now there's no way around losing a lot before you actually start winning (aside from Hinkley).
What I'd like to see is PvP battles with full loot and some player-sponsored rewards (no free-spawning stuff to avoid abuse) with a limit on the size of each team. I think that the best options would include 3v3, 5v5 and 10v10 (if you have more people, you're TC-enabled anyway). However, this stuff would require taking up some of the dev time, so for now it's impossible I think.
I'm not sure if organizing something like that on our own would be possible right now - I mean we could have PvP tournaments with good organization in faction bases, but they wouldn't be running around the clock without a fair bit of scripting and some additional NPCs/terminals to automate sign-ups, entrance fees, reward payouts etc.
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TL;DR alert.
I played FO on few servers since very beginning. I'm mostly PvE player, but had some experience with PvP. I was in a gang on 2238, I was part of bigger alliance (first with The Guardians, then some ppl may remember PolFinGer thing, then times with VSB, the Hawks and the rest against Rouges/BBS) and I played some TC. I can't say i was a great PvP killing machine nor my gang was (hmm, maybe was, before some players ot bored and went to BBS for moar action), but had a a shitload of fun and was getting better (hejmr from Hawks can confirm, I killed him once. As his allay :D). But still, now for me PvP is secondary thing. I'm not afraid of losing my stuff, I'm not afraid of dying many times (it happened countless times on 2238), and I plan go deeply into PvP later, but it sucks that there is to many restrictions with TC.
Let's skip the gang thing, it's obvious. But I can't use my main character because i got pwned really fast it RT combat against BG builds or Snipers, since I'm PvE build. It's not about experience and skill, since I've killed many ppl on the desert or in Glow or V15. It's about the game mechanic and i get that. I know it's hard to make everyone happy, but I play energy or melee chars only, and only one char at the time. I have 52 lvl energy char with 190HP, fast shot, 12AP, -1AP plasma rifle and i pwn solo almost everything in TB. When it comes with players it depends, but i assume that I've changed more players in a pile of goo than i died. But when comes to RT it's very hard. I play RT often too, since i like visiting Glow but i only can kill nabz without skills who thinks that because of their bursts they already are a winners. Skilled players with BG or XL70 are deadly. I don't say they are killing me only because of guns they use, but in most cases that's the truth. And I don't say it's a bad thing, but it's the thing that makes me useless in TC. I know You will say, make a pvp char and play. But it's not my style I always played with one Character (with one eception, but it was for trolling/RP thing*). Besides there is many things to do, I can spend all day hunting DeathClaws in caves, looking for good shit in lockers, wandering with friends on the desert without cleared purpose, just to spend some good time and shot few things. With no rush, and no competition, just for pure relax. So, about your question about attitude... PvP against similar players (not pure pvp builds) is good and i enjoy it (yes, even when i die), about TC and such since i don't have a crew and right build I must pass. Unfortunately.
*the trolling thing was to pretend a friend of myself from america fooling all my friends and gang members, that i want to learn polish language. I was fooling them about 2 moths or something like that, and it created a massive amount of funny situations. I doubt that someone remember my char named "Harry Keogh", since it was something about 2 or 3 years ago but hell, that shit was funny... :)
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Hello,
Guys. I have a good supply background. I would be more then happy to do TC as well as, kill some annyoing players (especially prancing ones). If we have similar attitude, maybe we can unite our forces ? My fraction base has been called "The black cats" This name might give some impression about how the idea may function.
Iam waiting for your messages. I can give you more insight about this - "the black cats" project - vision.
PS.
Vote for my FANTASTIC ideas placed on the suggestions board : P
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PvE players are typical, run of the mill individuals. We are here to get as far as we possibly can, and have as much fun as possible. When we encounter two people who can shoot 15 times in a row with rifles; It doesn't make us want to PvP at all. Also, RT is horrid for anyone who actually wants to play the game. If you don't use a 'standard' build and level it, which is ungodly boring and, who wants to be like everyone else? Nobody. That's why I chose the slaver build, ten charisma does shit all for anything, but it gives me the ability to all sorts of awesome and cool things. I will never participate in TC on that character simply because I can't. I don't do enough damage to be efficient, and I can't take more than two turns of hits. Sure, my first aid and doctor are both pretty high, I'm a good support guy. But that's it. I'd much rather hang out with friends and take on huge groups of SM's and such, challenges that include risk and death is staring you in the face. But you can avoid it, you can fight it. When I think TC, I think of an ant getting stomped on by an elephant. You can't stop it, simply because we don't follow the crowd and use the 'correct' build. That's just my view on the whole thing; in short, we can't participate in TC because we don't follow everyone else's build, because we want to be different and find new ways to play the game.
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Esteban is completely right. People who are focused more on roleplaying and immersion, usually have no chances when they encounter anyone with a PvP build. For example, if I like to play an SG hunter, with some decent outdoorsman, a bit of this and that, I will get stomped by any min-maxer, by simple maths. The sole SPECIAL distribution puts me a light year behind any guy with a "viable" PvP build. I think there should be sth like 2 servers, for example, one for PvE, and other for hardcore PvP. I don't mind getting sniped, or anything like that, I played too much DayZ to bother, but being instagibbed by miniguns in every possible location is just getting tiresome, and it just makes you want to quit. I love the changes made, the amount of new content is great, and as a Fallout fan since, well, always I want to dig through it. I hope there can be a solution that would satisfy both sides.
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This part is a reply to Nice Boat post:
From what I saw in GM videos and while sneaking during TC for some time now every gang even thinking about some serious TC need to have:
- 2-3 heavy battle sneaks (not just a bluesuit scout)
- about 12 real PvP chars (it's usualy range from 8 - 16)
- lately it's also 2-4 BG companions
Tell me which PvE group willing to try TC can afford that?
Another thing is that PvE players usualy would like to play on their favourite laser spammer or other good or bad PvE char. That's the thing only they can change because if they are not willing to level new char then there is no place for them in PvP because they would be eaten alive by first PvP char they encounter.
Ok, lets say they got PvP char and wanna try something small, so New Reno is their choice. Fine, but they enter and find nobody or get raped by bluesuit HtH trolls, invisible heroes on sneak or just a group twice their size spawn on them.
Also TC fights slowly turn into who got more people and patience to wait on WM or in building longer. It's mostly because of sneaks. Durring TC fights I go out, check WM and there are some nick, but not much, suddenly 10+ people spawn, soon after fight begin and surprise, surprise another 10+ people spawn. Before that happen you need to get past insane ammount of sneakeres running everywhere, so my ques is that for 15 min. you wait in tents/bases with 10+ people while 2-3 are running all over the town (same for all teams) and just wait for oportunity go get in ass of two fighting groups and fights seams to be about 1 min long.
Very apealing for new players to start doing TC if in 1h window you spend most of the time on WM because if you enter first you will be just serving yourself on plate for those who had more patience to wait on WM.
This part is mostly general PvP talk:
What I see is seriously wrong with this PvP and will soon turn Reloaded into 2238 mkII version is:
- PvP builds on sneak, you should call it like that, it's no longer a sneaker, it's a regular fighter with ability to become invisible and all they sacrifice is 1 perk at lvl 6...
- sneakers with companions, also great Reloaded invention
- AC + Jinxed + Sneak chars - real combobreaker, just add companions and avenger/gatling into that
- bluesuit AC + HtH +/- HH trolls - 2238 all over again (from what I saw on videos from Reno on Reloaded Youtube channel trolls are already here and still naked bluesuit is doing amazingly good vs well armed chars)
- NPC in PvP all over again but this time it's not merc leaders spawning from WM, now it's sneakers or regular fighers with companions (free and respawning npc), with no lvl cap, easy leveling you get PP for 2 of those without a problem
What can be done:
- heavy nerf to sneakers, they are ment to be scouts, not invisible regular PvP chars. I would love to see them disabled and scouting left for snipers and other high pe chars. Imagine three groups in town looking for each other, more tactical gameplay I would say, not simply had a magic eye in town that will say, ok spawn rigth, go up, left then down and rape all that are left from two groups that had balls for enter town first
- make HtH chars worth something but only when well equiped, right now AC is working best on bluesuit, you got in your face, sneak and you just need to be lucky, score some crit, ko/kd but you can do it for free on bluesuit, you die, you respawn and come back on blue to troll some more
- sneaking should work like loging off for NPC followers, right now good sneaker can use them for example to initiate corner rush, companions are free, will respawn, got reaction time better then players, so well used can break every rapetrain for free
- change of TC zones in town (maybe exclude buildings?), from many movies you can see that durring TC most of the time is not used and it's n-th time same moves, over and over again, I don't know but it seams to be a bit borring. There are also too many open spaces where you simply don't want to go in towns becuase you can be ambushed easily with no cover on open space, so people stick to old buildings and streets that at least give them some cover
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First is to follow the Guild Wars route of offering an entirely separate PvP character creation option. I don't have to work my way up to max level, I can tweak my character exactly the way I want, and I get to jump into PvP right away without worrying about messing up. It's a consequence-free way to offer the full PvP experience of competing via player skill, tactics, reflexes, and other non-mechanical traits. After all, that's the core of PvP, right? You're fully satisfied - even if you lose - when you know you and your enemy were fighting on equal terms, and that if you mess up, it was because of a mistake you had full control over. Not because of some stupid thing like your gun jamming in the middle of the fight, or your opponent's armor having +1 more AC than yours.
I've played Guild Wars for few years, mostly pvp-only chars and sure, it was a great idea. Recently I was thinking about something like that - an arena that can be joined by everyone and also it would be possible to create arena-only characters, with free exp till 24 lvl, but these characters would not be able to leave the arena.
Still, there are other things to do, like some alternatives to town control, maybe with limited number of participants on both sides..
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Very apealing for new players to start doing TC if in 1h window you spend most of the time on WM because if you enter first you will be just serving yourself on plate for those who had more patience to wait on WM.
Yep, I'm really getting tired of TC. 90% of the time it's just standing on WM/tent and waiting. I don't mind waiting - I'm patient man, but for god's sake! 40minutes of waiting, just so we can enter and fight for 5 minutes...
In most of the games there are"sneaker" characters - rogues/thieves/scouts, you name it. Yes, they are "invisible", but at the same time alot weaker than tank/dps or whatever. They can't use heavy armors, big weapons etc. Their advantage is "invisibility" and surprising the enemy, not a friggin gatling in your face...
Here they can sneak with friggin' minigun or gatling - that's damn stupid. They shouldn't be able to sneak with heavy weaponry (all big guns, gatling etc.) and should have big minus for sneaking with weapon bigger than pistols/SMGs. They also shouldn't be able to sneak with anything heavier than Combat Leather Jacket.
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I agree that sneaking in best armors is just ridiculous, sneakers are hard to kill and are very powerful. Previous sneak system was pretty balanced, every kilogram was a small penalty for sneaking, that way it was harder to sneak with heavy weapons like avengers or gatlings, sneaking in a CA was almost impossible. The fights are long and mostly about WM camping because there are teams that don’t even take a shit without proper scouting. During this time there are a few sneakers inside the town having some fun but most of the players are waiting on WM and that’s tiring.
I have myself a 281 hp sneaker and I remember in one TC in Den I switched to rocket launcher and joined our main forces in fighting, that is in my opinion something that a sneaker shouldn’t be capable of.
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basically what reasons you listed and what everyone else already has said. pvp players generally are just really poor sports and horde you with numbers, or just randomly dying on a town map, why has it become habit for me to always check a town out naked if im not ABSOLUTELY sure its safe, cant count how many times ive been blown in half for just going into a town and not knowing that it was some PVP BS. im lookin to trade and find quests instead i find a minigun DPS whore in my face just waiting there not even being fair, just waiting with perfect LOS to burst you. its just poor sportsmanship, i don't play this game because I WANT to play with 5 year olds..........
so honestly i just don't want to play its not fun there is no teamwork outside of the big gangs and the game itself does not leave room for small pools of players that just want to play with 3-5 freinds. we will never compete with gangs of 50+, we know it and we dont WANT TO, we just want to have fun playing fallout as a team and maybe pit our characters against each-other because at least there is a sense of fairness in 1v1.
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I'm afraid you play wrong game. You probably want some meaningful "Fallout experience" with
towns being actual towns with some roleplay not arenas filled with maniacs, but this game
IS NOTHING like the original Fallout games. The sooner you realize it, the better for you. Sorry.
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First is to follow the Guild Wars route of offering an entirely separate PvP character creation option. I don't have to work my way up to max level, I can tweak my character exactly the way I want, and I get to jump into PvP right away without worrying about messing up. It's a consequence-free way to offer the full PvP experience of competing via player skill, tactics, reflexes, and other non-mechanical traits. After all, that's the core of PvP, right? You're fully satisfied - even if you lose - when you know you and your enemy were fighting on equal terms, and that if you mess up, it was because of a mistake you had full control over. Not because of some stupid thing like your gun jamming in the middle of the fight, or your opponent's armor having +1 more AC than yours.
I've played Guild Wars for few years, mostly pvp-only chars and sure, it was a great idea. Recently I was thinking about something like that - an arena that can be joined by everyone and also it would be possible to create arena-only characters, with free exp till 24 lvl, but these characters would not be able to leave the arena.
Still, there are other things to do, like some alternatives to town control, maybe with limited number of participants on both sides..
I want to clarify something about my original, very long reply here.
I equate PvP with everything that involves hostile player interaction with other players. That is, not just TC, which is ideally a fair matchup between factions and where the most important factor for winning is lots of planning and sound tactics (I think?). I also assume the term "PvP" includes world map encounters, town griefers, suicide bombers, etc.
My opinions and observations about PvP therefore are not specific to Town Control.
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The biggest problem I have with PvP is that I don't like real-time combat.
I'm just a casual gamer and suck at it big time.
Another thing is that I don't want to play min/maxed PvP builds since I like balanced characters.
Playing PvP with a build that's not powergamed for it and that doesn't use drugs seems pointless.
Although I've been able too kill some PvPers at Hinkley with my less than 70HP crafter/sniper.
I prefer playing WITH other players over playing AGAINST them,
but still think PvP (yes even PKing to some extent) is an important part of the charm of Fonline.
Wasteland gotta be a dangerous place.
But if I just wanted action I could simply go to Hinkley. Nothing to lose there.
Maybe factions could recruit other players as mercenaries for TC and give em gear and caps in return?
I'm afraid you play wrong game. You probably want some meaningful "Fallout experience" with
towns being actual towns with some roleplay not arenas filled with maniacs, but this game
IS NOTHING like the original Fallout games. The sooner you realize it, the better for you. Sorry.
It could be though. It doesn't depend on the game but the players.