Regarding sneak...

[Blarney]

I suggest to rename sneak skill into magic invisibility
 

And change the name of bullets to rubber pellets.

And melee to knockdown spam.

And stimpacks into sensu beans. ;P

[zato1]

hello i am a sneaker that kills alot of people in this game. i play 300 sg/sneak sniper/pistol. i fight other sneaks 1v1 and use flanking tactics to pinch enemies in team fights and snipe them.

sneak overall is pretty good, and certainly viable to a minor extent, but tank perks/traits like bonehead and man of steel are vastly overpowered versus the critical damage/chance perks. the most disparaging fact of bonehead is that any character can take it, and its significantly more powerful than almost any other choice outside of specialized builds.

realistically, a sneak should be able to kill a tank 1/10 times with some luck on crits, or skilled gameplay. but given current circumstances, its more like 1/50, maybe even worse, due to stacking bonuses from tank builds.

kilgore pls nerf bonehead. reduce gatling range by 5 hex. or let us wear rare CA with -100 sneak penalty or something. its not out of the realm of possibility to imagine NCR armor for example allowing one to sneak.

[Furior]

hello i am a sneaker that kills alot of people in this game
sneak overall is pretty good

kilgore pls nerf bonehead. reduce gatling range by 5 hex.

Ok.. ill make it short. Sneakers arent supposed to kill tank builds.

[DocAN]

hello i am a sneaker that kills alot of people in this game
sneak overall is pretty good

kilgore pls nerf bonehead. reduce gatling range by 5 hex.

Ok.. ill make it short. Sneakers arent supposed to kill tank builds.

Nothing to add.

[zato1]

in ideal balanced pvp game, every class should be able to deal with any other archetype using different tools at their disposal. it should be harder than a guaranteed win for tanks vs sneaker outside of extremely lucky crits. in the current paradigm, even with bonehead nerfs, a tank could easily kill a sneaker in a real fight, even if it meant the tank had to shoot him more than once or twice, god forbid 3 times. time to kill between any sneak build and a tank is absurdly in favor of the tank (5-10 shots versus 1-2) - to the point where its not even possible for sneaker to win any other way besides RNG jesus double or triple KO.

as it stands, only crit burster can deal with tank builds with any consistency, but only because they can 1shot anyone at range, even tanks.

the pvp would be more enjoyable if people weren't running around getting 1shot at range. the only time you should die in 1 click from a player is when getting 1-hexed. i think anyone can agree with that.

at the very least, extremely powerful anti-sneak weapons like gatling laser should have their range reduced to be in line with other weapons of its type.

if that means nerfing the timer on KD/KO on crits to be more acceptable, then that should happen as well.

[Troll]

I don't agree with you. I think a good game balance is when every build typed has advantageds against other builds and disadvantages against others. As it is now, sneaks have huge advantages against damage snipers and other jet bursters, and it is enough. Before wipe sneaks could kill anyting within 2-3 bursts including full implants tanks (the 337 HP stonewall type, toughes of the toughest) which was I think broken. The new sneaks mechanics don't allow that anymore. The game balance is good as it is now, even better than in the first session. The only game breaking shit now is implants, not the fact sneaks can PWNED everything. If DR and HP implants were nerfed (or even removed kek) sneaks would actually have a chance against tanks. But when your target has fucking 83 DR at full HP, you don't stand a chance with LSW, even if each burst is crit you get wrecked. Also, even if special implants are less a problem, the also change the game balance for crit builds, thus sneaks with pistols too. Normaly, stonewall tanks have low luck, because even with 1 int, they need points everywhere else. This mean high groin bypass chance, because most of them choose the third lifegiver over MoS. But if the guy has MoS (why would he waste a perk on 20 hp, he has nemeans anyway), stonewall, and 5 LK, you can't do shit when you attack from behind with your little pistol or from far away with a sniper rifle. Even if you attack with gauss weapons, they have such retarded damage resistance you won't be able to do shit.
The unbalance is caused by the fact some players are fully implanted and other don't have a single one, which is more or less like having characters with 20 perks instead of 8. The sneak mechanics are fine as they are.

[These Ives Are Burly]

in ideal balanced pvp game, every class should be able to deal with any other archetype using different tools at their disposal. it should be harder than a guaranteed win for tanks vs sneaker outside of extremely lucky crits. in the current paradigm, even with bonehead nerfs, a tank could easily kill a sneaker in a real fight, even if it meant the tank had to shoot him more than once or twice, god forbid 3 times. time to kill between any sneak build and a tank is absurdly in favor of the tank (5-10 shots versus 1-2) - to the point where its not even possible for sneaker to win any other way besides RNG jesus double or triple KO.

as it stands, only crit burster can deal with tank builds with any consistency, but only because they can 1shot anyone at range, even tanks.

the pvp would be more enjoyable if people weren't running around getting 1shot at range. the only time you should die in 1 click from a player is when getting 1-hexed. i think anyone can agree with that.

at the very least, extremely powerful anti-sneak weapons like gatling laser should have their range reduced to be in line with other weapons of its type.

if that means nerfing the timer on KD/KO on crits to be more acceptable, then that should happen as well.

In large scale PvP this would not work. There is a reason it's a team effort.

[zato1]

i dont think nerfing bonehead to be more balanced would have any impact on the game outside of making tanks slightly less overpowered and vulnerable to crits....

there is also no such thing as large scale combat in this game. don't use that to justify 2/3 of the game's potential builds being overpowered.

simply put, tanks and burst, specifically gatling laser, is op and needs to be balanced to make the game enjoyable for non-tanks... but nobody would agree with me because this game is 90% tanks that are happy to play whack-a-mole 1-click killing instead of skillful pvp using cover and tactics 

one thing to consider would be removing bonehead as a trait, and instead making it one of the perk choices they have to select... because as it stands any character build, tank or not, gains a disproportionately large amount of defensiveness vs crit builds by using bonehead while not suffering any negative penalty whatsoever.

[yungchance]

i dont think nerfing bonehead to be more balanced would have any impact on the game outside of making tanks slightly less overpowered and vulnerable to crits....

there is also no such thing as large scale combat in this game. don't use that to justify 2/3 of the game's potential builds being overpowered.

simply put, tanks and burst, specifically gatling laser, is op and needs to be balanced to make the game enjoyable for non-tanks... but nobody would agree with me because this game is 90% tanks that are happy to play whack-a-mole 1-click killing instead of skillful pvp using cover and tactics 

one thing to consider would be removing bonehead as a trait, and instead making it one of the perk choices they have to select... because as it stands any character build, tank or not, gains a disproportionately large amount of defensiveness vs crit builds by using bonehead while not suffering any negative penalty whatsoever.

-1 Int

[These Ives Are Burly]

i dont think nerfing bonehead to be more balanced would have any impact on the game outside of making tanks slightly less overpowered and vulnerable to crits....

there is also no such thing as large scale combat in this game. don't use that to justify 2/3 of the game's potential builds being overpowered.

simply put, tanks and burst, specifically gatling laser, is op and needs to be balanced to make the game enjoyable for non-tanks... but nobody would agree with me because this game is 90% tanks that are happy to play whack-a-mole 1-click killing instead of skillful pvp using cover and tactics 

one thing to consider would be removing bonehead as a trait, and instead making it one of the perk choices they have to select... because as it stands any character build, tank or not, gains a disproportionately large amount of defensiveness vs crit builds by using bonehead while not suffering any negative penalty whatsoever.

Tanks still have to use cover and tactics. Like i said "There is a reason it is a team effort".

[Troll]

About gatling:

The gatling is good, but it is outclassed by other normal weapon damage in various situations. It isn't overpowered, unless if used to shoot unarmored sneaks of course. The +/- 100 damage you get on a CA mk2 is an ultimate maximum, unless you have a crit build (and thus you ain't a tank anymore) you cannot have higher damage (some rare lucky rolls reach 110 or 120 but it can as well be 70 damage). Laser damage is countered by metal armor and adrenaline rush. Gatling against tank under adrenaline rush deals crap damage, around 60 maximum if unimplanted, avenger performs better. Also when used on low damage resistance build, any normal damage weapon is better, the AP cost is lower and the damage same or better. A 261 hp build can survive a tank shooting him with gatling laser for as long as he has stimpacks, because even if stimpacks heal a bit less than what the gatling deals as damage, it costs one less action point and doesn't require any reload. Try that on jet with a minigun shooting you for almost double that damage, you can eat all the stims you want, you are dead at the third hit no matter how you put it. Also jet is a way to counter gatling, you have 2 free AP with no downsides compaired to your opponent. The only "overpowered" aspect of the gatling would be its range, 35 would be enough.

About sneaks:

Sneaks are weaker than regular fighters, because they spent at least one perk (silent running) to sneaking only and wear leather. BUT they are fucking unvisible, if sneaks would be able to wear CA and other regulars armors, then I don't see the point to play anything else than sneak. The unvisible p90 one hexers we had previous sessions were overpowered, it was easy no skill killing, just click next to someone when he is standing still and burst him twice. Sneaker are now harder to play and I think it is best. A sneak is like a crippler, it's a team support/backstabb build. It's not meant to win a 1 vs 1 with a gatling tank.

About bonehead:

Bonehead is fine, and it is used by much more than tank builds. If bonehead is reduced, lets say to -5 crit power, the nerf for MoS tanks will be minor, the nerf to every other build much greater. If something needs nerfing, maybe it should be man of steel, but again, if crit resist is lowered, pistol sneaks will score KO bypass with each attack, which isn't fair aswell. The game balance is fine as it is. The crit table was said to be broken, but it's not, it's just not adapted to characters with more than 40 SPECIAL points. I will repeat myself, but the only game breaking thing here is the fact you can have 8 DR everywhere (which is ALOT when it's already high) and 40 HP with no downsides.

[zato1]

personally, i think sneak vs regular character combat *should not* revolve around KO bypass anyway, because such a thing is not fun for either side. so i get a 1/50 chance to insta-kill another player who has no chance to fight back once the crit lands? zzzzz.

 to compensate for a nerf to critical resist, crit table should have KO/KD reduced as well, perhaps with bypass damage chance increased slightly. damage should be the main form of combat control, not lucky KO crit string for 30 AP points.

for example, its very lame to outplay another player so much that i can get 5 shots to their 2 while wearing leather armor, but 3-4 out of my 5 shots to the eyes are non-criticals that deal 20 damage. meanwhile, they click me once and can deal anywhere from 100-250 damage per click, often just killing me outright with 1 burst when using a gatling laser at 45 (!!!) hexes.

i understand a sneak should never have option for burst weapons without taking a penalty to sneak. actually, i've argued against such builds like silent death burst even many years ago. this should be common sense to not allow sneaks to 1-click-kill other players. however, it should also be balanced so that sneaks are also not vulnerable to 1-click-kills, because dying in such a way is not fun, skillful, or rewarding, and actually detracts from the gameplay experience from both parties in a fight. at the very least, gatling laser range should be reduced a minimum of 5 hexes so theres at least some chance to win versus this type of build.

the truth is that while sneak is viable in some situations its not nearly as useful as just having another combat character, because when it comes down to it, a sneak's current usefulness is the same as a random newbie in bluesuit gathering enemy location before dying.

not to mention that most sneaks are just using plasma grenades, and fighting only other sneakers, because balance is so badly in favor of tanks, that its simply not worth using a gun in 90% of situations.

if you really think its okay, then you should try to play a sneak character and experience the imbalances first hand. i have played both sneak and non-sneak, and i can tell you without bias that the combat balance is very much favored to tanks due to high crit resist, high burst damage, and high range on anti-sneak weapons.

Tanks still have to use cover and tactics. Like i said "There is a reason it is a team effort".

no they dont, not vs sneaks, its simply 1-2 clicks and they die while the tank is nearly invulnerable to damage from sneaker.

[triqua]

well i am somewhat convinced that a sneaker can still be a good pvp build. You can have a classic big gun burster build and you trade one lifegiver for silent running and tadaaa you have a sneaker that you also can use as a bg burster if you put him into some nice armor and hand him over a nice avenger. but when it comes to scouting just put on your leather armor, some lsw in inventory and go for it. If you have leather armor mk2 and some phoenixes you even can survive one 1-hex from gatling.

What are your expectations? Of course sneaker is not the easiest build because you have to learn good positioning and to know when "your moment" has come to get out of the shadows. But you are able to provide incredible intel to your team, you can be the dick stealing the loot if someone is soloing warehouse/reno without beeing seen. just play smart.

nothing to change on sneaks.

[zato1]

guess i should just reroll tank sneaker with gatling because thats the only way to play without getting hard countered by 90% of the game. but according to you guys, everything is fine, lel...

oh well, maybe ill enjoy this game again next session. whenever that is.