Pvp and pve mixed doesn't work

[avv]

In this thread I will explain why pve and pvp mixed is bad in fonlines and suggest some changes to the common settings.

When there is a risk that hostile players might spawn in your encounter when you're already fighting npcs it may encourage (according to some) interesting situations. But truthfully these situations are just bad gameplay that kills activity. If you can meet and kill players who do pve, it may increase player interaction but it KILLS the whole activity of pve. To make you understand here's an example of the illusion of player interaction: you might say that if there was a chance that players could find each other's bases on wm it'd increase player interaction but at the same time it kills the whole idea of bases.

If you make pve, you can't mix pvp into it because in encounters and dungeons pvp and pve are wastly different in terms of strategy. In pve you go against the npcs over and over recklessly. In pvp you camp, wait, scout and make brief offensive moves. In pvp you spend materials and have vague chance to get them in return, in pve you likely gain them at steady rate. Lastly, it's extremely stupid idea strategically to choose to fight npc and players at the same time.

If you lay a trap or seek your enemy from encounter, you aren't farming anymore, you don't get profits, you are wasting your time and there's a chance that you don't even find anyone. And even if you do manage to kill the guy who's harassing you, what guarantees you got he doesn't come back or come back with friends? Basically those who hunt down pve players ruin the whole activity in the area. Can't blame them because farmers are easy targets, so let's say that allowing this to happen ruins the activity.

So I suggest that where ever there are hostile npcs, there must not be chance that uninvited players appear. If there is a pve dungeon, then other players must not be allowed to enter that instance without some kind of invitation. If there are encounters with hostile npc, then players must be given a choice if they want other players in because maybe someone enjoys fighting npc and players at the same time.

You might think that all players will disappear in these safe farming grounds. Might be, but it's better than forcing players in situations they didn't sign up for. Forcing everyone to face pvp in unfair settings simply encourages avoidance. If someone wants pvp, then maybe he should stop looking easy targets and find actual pvp-oriented targets from pvp locations.

[drot]

This kills the TB PvP. Safe farming isn't FOnline anymore but another game where you greet a feline. Why should you have the right to acquire items safely if in the end you're going to harm other players with them?

[DocAN]

I`m thinking about some hybrid solution, will see if it will work.

[kaincallavis]

First off, this is Fallout Online. Not hello kitty princess island adventures or farmville.
It is a WASTELAND out there. You are SUPPOSED to fear and respect it.
Danger is a REALITY, not a possibility.

However,
Possible Hybrid solution:
PVE encounters can still be found and joined by uninvited players; however, if there is a cave in the encounter and the PVE players slip into the cave- then that would make it MUCH harder to see them on the WM if you are just passing by...
We could say if PVE players are fighting in a cave, then it requires 150+ outdoors to even recognize that players were there. (IE: 150 outdoors skill to encounter players that are already in a cave)

Or if people want it even safer: just make it impossible to encounter players after they; or their whole party, has entered the cave.
-Kain

[kaincallavis]

This kills the TB PvP. Safe farming isn't FOnline anymore but another game where you greet a feline. Why should you have the right to acquire items safely if in the end you're going to harm other players with them?

Agreed.

Keep in mind the best way to be "safe" in fallout online is to either find friends and hunt as a group OR find a remote location and hunt there.

The reality is that the game is not so crowded that you cannot just go off to a more remote square and hunt.
Sure, there is a small chance someone passes by and finds you but much less likely than hunting near a town.
Just place yourself a tent out there somewhere remote. Boom, a pretty safe hunting location.
-Kain

[avv]

This kills the TB PvP. Safe farming isn't FOnline anymore but another game where you greet a feline. Why should you have the right to acquire items safely if in the end you're going to harm other players with them?

I don't think anyone can state what is fonline.

Why should players have right to acquire friends, bases or anything at all safely if they can be used to harm other players? As a matter of fact, based on this logic they shouldn't even be allowed to make a character without having a risk of pvp in it. If you fail the pvp, you can't get the character. Makes sense huh?
Besides, it's not guaranteed players will use the items to harm other players, some pve players don't want to have anything to do with pvp.

First off, this is Fallout Online. Not hello kitty princess island adventures or farmville.
It is a WASTELAND out there. You are SUPPOSED to fear and respect it.
Danger is a REALITY, not a possibility.

Why do you demand everyone else to play like you? If you enjoy risk and danger so much, then you can leave your encounters open for players. If you demand to have access in other player's pve encounters, then it's basically like saying "I want to hunt down easy targets". How about you set yourself as a target if you enjoy it so much.
And I never said to remove danger. Npcs are dangerous, they shoot back.

[kaincallavis]

First off, this is Fallout Online. Not hello kitty princess island adventures or farmville.
It is a WASTELAND out there. You are SUPPOSED to fear and respect it.
Danger is a REALITY, not a possibility.

Why do you demand everyone else to play like you? If you enjoy risk and danger so much, then you can leave your encounters open for players. If you demand to have access in other player's pve encounters, then it's basically like saying "I want to hunt down easy targets". How about you set yourself as a target if you enjoy it so much.
And I never said to remove danger. Npcs are dangerous, they shoot back.

Actually for the most part I am a pve player; however, part of the fun for me IS the danger that someone might come in and try to attack, then you have to either make it out alive or kill them - most likely you would die trying.
It is a post apocalyptic wasteland. It is not supposed to be safe at all, aside from maybe in your tent or base if you have one of those.

As I said before it is a wasteland. The danger is real, like it or not.
The wasteland takes lives, if you die in the wastes you don't know if its going to be to players or patrols, muties, or monsters.

The wasteland is to be feared, and respected.
-Kain

[avv]

Actually for the most part I am a pve player; however, part of the fun for me IS the danger that someone might come in and try to attack, then you have to either make it out alive or kill them - most likely you would die trying.
It is a post apocalyptic wasteland. It is not supposed to be safe at all, aside from maybe in your tent or base if you have one of those.

As I said before it is a wasteland. The danger is real, like it or not.
The wasteland takes lives, if you die in the wastes you don't know if its going to be to players or patrols, muties, or monsters.

The wasteland is to be feared, and respected.
-Kain

Well if part of that fun is to jump on player's encs or get jumped on, then good for you! Then you can leave that option open. However it's not up to you to decide what the wasteland is and how everyone should play.
Besides I told the consequences of mixing pvp and pve: avoidance of other players and decelerating of activity. When there are hunters on worldmap looking for pve players, it's generally a good idea to stop doing pve in that area, not "deal with the situation" and continue to foolishly risk yourself. This is the result which is caused by having a chance to meet players in encounters. You can't just bypass this fact and defend it with your own visions about harsh wasteland.

[kaincallavis]

...When there are hunters on worldmap looking for pve players, it's generally a good idea to stop doing pve in that area...

Exactly!!!
See? you answered your own issue, congrats. No need to change now.

Another thing, there is a colorization option available for everyone. If you know and trust someone color the green and have them do the same to you. If someone green drops in or you drop in on a green then you already know its best to help and not fight them or run from them.

Red players are known "enemies" or random player killers. And white players should be very cautiously regarded and not trusted necessarily.

Sounds like this has been resolved
-Kain

[avv]

Exactly!!!
See? you answered your own issue, congrats. No need to change now.

But that is the issue that the risk to meet other players kills activity. It prevents players from having fun, get it? It prevents players from doing something that's not harmful to other players in direct way. And in my opinion other players don't have the right to affect the acts of other players if those acts don't directly affect them. This is what this is all about.
It's different in towns and non-pve locations because another player can at least always be a scout or looter. You aren't scouting anyone in your own encounter. Neither are you stealing from anyone because encounters are infinite. So why would other players have the right to prevent you from doing it? It's like preventing players from organizing their own base in a way they want or preventing players from making a certain character.

Another thing, there is a colorization option available for everyone. If you know and trust someone color the green and have them do the same to you. If someone green drops in or you drop in on a green then you already know its best to help and not fight them or run from them.

Red players are known "enemies" or random player killers. And white players should be very cautiously regarded and not trusted necessarily.

This has nothing to do with the strategic settings encounter pvp takes place.

[kaincallavis]

Sorry friend. PVP is a massive part of this game.
It is what a great deal of us play for.

No One is stopping you from PVEing, but yes there is a chance that someone might find you and kill you. It is a wasteland and it is the way the FOnline was designed to encourage pvp other than just town pvp or town wars and it encourages the use of the outdoor skill.
With more outdoors you can more easily avoid being found and you can avoid falling into other players encounter. Use that for pve.

Who are you to say that pvp should not be allowed in the wasteland?
Find friends, play the game as you see fit. Stop trying to ruin the pvp aspect for others.

Even I, who has way more PVE characters than  pvp, respects the wasteland as a potentially deadly environment and the players are part of what makes it so.

You can interact plenty with people in towns, and you can form parties and interact then outside the towns.
Enjoy your gaming experience. I know I will
-Kain

[Perteks]

Then if you don't wanna get raped by random PvP guy get a friend with you. Nobody said that you can't do this its MMO for god sake, start playing in teams or just with friends not solo uhh

[avv]

Then if you don't wanna get raped by random PvP guy get a friend with you. Nobody said that you can't do this its MMO for god sake, start playing in teams or just with friends not solo uhh

It's also an MMO with a rule to avoid other players if you aren't sure you can defeat them. Avoid strangers when you are in weak situation.
So you want to force everyone to play in a team or with other people. Didn't work out very well in 2238.
Besides, calling more people isn't the answer because that option is also open for the enemy. And furthermore it doesn't even solve the problem that risk of pvp in pve encounter causes: when the risk is present you stop doing pve. To point out even more, calling friends usually means you get less loot so it's less profitable.
Also it's easy to say to call more friends but not everyone has friends by default or even desire to get them. Some just want to mind their own business and do their own without causing harm to other players. Plus even if you have the friends, they don't work like that every time you need help they just come instantly to aid you with whatever you need. They are doing stuff too and when you need them they have to stop their own tasks and come to you. How about every time I need help vs encounter pks I ask you to come and help me. I don't think you'd have the patience for that very long.

[DocAN]

As i said, some Hybrid solution is planned, we will see if it will work.

[drot]

Instead of making the whole WM safe, maybe safe zones around towns and certain areas of the WM can be established where other players cannot intrude upon your activities.