CH and IN changes to have some value.

[Slowhand]

It's me theorycrafting again Promise, last time for a while now.

So, I had a suggestion how to save EN, I stick to that for now, time to "save" IN and CH.

IN:

I suggest a "slight" change: Critical shots to the head, should daze the target as well, beisdes/instead of knocking them unconscious. Dazed targets would have hard time recognizing friend from foe. (Change awareness tooltips and animations to some random critter of everyone visible) Also there should be a Dazed duration, measured in AP, under which the char will take random actions, shooting nearby teammates, walk around, drop everything on the ground etc. The IN would be used for save roll vs this effect, and also would reduce the duration of Dazed.  I know, this is hard work, but well, this is my idea, so I dumped it here as everyone else
(Let's say for example, the player getting dazed has 6 IN and the attacker had 5 LK. So, (considering some random formula for now) after a head crit, Roll(1-10)+LK-IN would be the AP's used for random commands, which if the player can't use for anything, then it will move around random direction. Let's say he gets a 5 AP daze and will shoot someone randomly with a pistol and move 1 hex. If the char had 10 total AP, then he can finish his round with 4 AP left. After that, he wouls see for 5 turn different animations for the enemy players, critter around him, until the Daze works off, just for the kicks
(Daze could be an effect in the whole Head crit table, where knockout, comes in leater and the Daze will take effect only when the character get's up)

CH:

The solution is simple, yet again, from coding part it could be tedious. AI controlled targets, would shoot lower CH chars first, and focus to a degree on them. Somehting like if normally mobs will spread their attack targets between all Players if they have the same CH, however they would stack on players who have lower CH, and the CH would determine the ratio of the stack. Let's say someone has 1CH in a random encounter and a player joins the encounter with 3CH. In this case if there are 10 mobs, then:
the first 3 mobs would attack the first players(1CH + 3 mobs = 4 agro value on first player, with 3 of it being a mob.),
the 4th mob would attack the second player(3CH + 1 mobs = 4 agro value on second player as well, but with only 1 mob),
the 5th mob would attack the first player(1CH + 4 mobs = 5)
the 6th mob would attack the second player and so on.. thus making lower CH chars focused.

If the above is too complicated, then a Roll should be made, for simplicity, where CH is used for bonus.

While this seems to mean little to nothing is most PvP situations, considering the game course toward more teamfights with NPC's as well, (because what else can u add as content?) this might matter. For random encounters, sure it will. Jumping someone fighting rogues, and getting 2 rockets right away is quite fun.

For bonus:
- the Dazed effect, would make the player attack the lowest CH player in sight.
- this CH method could be used for PVE as well, for TANKS to have low CH and other DD roles have a bit more, similar to WoW agro keeping with tank skills. (exploitable, but counter measures can be used.)

[Blarney]

I don't really like the dazed idea personally, a cc effect that makes people shoot friendlies is crazy OP in say a TC situation. But the idea for charisma is pretty cool (maybe complex to code properly though), could be an interesting usage, but I guess it would have no effect on players, which makes it a bit of a bummer, and as you said may just be exploited for farming purposes.

[Slowhand]

Baically the Daze was a cover story for why IN would reduce CC effects. (as normally being highly intelligent, doesn't reduce the time you are knocked out for)

So, a "not so OP cc, but still giving meaning to IN for PvP" example for you Barnley:

1   - 20: Roll EN for KD, Roll IN for Daze
21 - 45: Roll EN for KD, Roll CH + 2 for Panic
46 - 70: KD, Roll EN for Knockout, Roll IN - 2 for Daze effect after recovering from Knockout.
70 - 85: KD, Daze, Roll IN + 3 for Berzerk.
86-100: KD, Daze, Roll IN for Berzerk.
100+:    KD, Daze, Roll EN death, (if did not die), Panic

Rolls for headshot effects vs IN: Roll(1-10+1 if Right between the eye perk taken by attacker).

Daze: Loose 2 max AP for a MAX(2, ROLL(1-10)-IN) rounds. (time in RT) (Other effects could be, loose sight range or chance to hit penalty.)
Panic: Loose control over char for MAX(1, ROLL(1-5)-CH/2) rounds (time in RT) and the char would try to run away from the char or run in random direction.
Berzerk: Loose control over char for MAX(1, ROLL(1-5)-IN/2) round and the char will attack the nearest target, regardless of it being friend, foe, NPC, Player. If melee (no) weap equiped and out of range, then move toward the target.

Edit: Note: ROLL for CH Panic - Here the attribute Charisma of a player, is not only defined like how the world perceives the players PC, but also, inner strengths, will, and how the PC looks upon himself. CH would be used to resist charm spells in other games, here would be used to resist cowardice.

[Kaaon]

did i missed some worst suggestion possible competition announcement ?

[Slowhand]

the idea for charisma is pretty cool (maybe complex to code properly though), could be an interesting usage, but I guess it would have no effect on players, which makes it a bit of a bummer, and as you said may just be exploited for farming purposes.

Well, players are always affected by the environment, except in friendly duels. If you have high CH (or at least not 1) you may try to farm mobs that have strong ranged attack. In this case people who have a 1CH PK build, would suffer the wrath of the mobs immediately, leaving you opportunity to flee or fight back with better odds. If your only fun in game is TC and wagger duels, then you probably will set CH to 1, yeah, it does not help there but it shouldn't also. Well, depends how CH as an attribute is looked upon. If Charisma in game describes only the way others perceive you, then it should be a non-PVP factor attribute, and it's good that way. If you say that Charisma determines also, how your character looks upon himself, how confident he is, etc, then it could be reasonable to use it in PvP to resist charm effects. Unfortunately there are no such effects in Fallout, so it should remain a stat for PVE-ers.

[Slowhand]

did i missed some worst suggestion possible competition announcement ?

Nah, I'm just theory crafting

But... why so offensive mate? Had a bad sleep?

[Kaaon]

no i dont want to be offensive and its not only about your suggestions but also about many others lately..
there are so many players which are suggesting after like month of playing to full remake of combat system, remake of SPECIAL etc.. those suggestions will never be applied, game is working and balanced for this mechanic for years, better suggest some smaller changes, features, improvements
i doubt that anything like daze or berzerk from this suggestion will be implemented and also those rolls are completely random numbers

just because IN and CH are not used in PvP it doesnt mean that they are useless, ofc it makes sense that endurance is more important then charisma in pvp, some stats are better for pvp and other for pve
charisma is still used for party points for companions for pve players, int is used on alts like crafters, thieves etc.. and even some PvP players which are lazy to level up have alot of IN

what i dont like and is connected with INT is gap between levels needed for some builds and also level needed to make some builds
everywhere i read that this game is not supposed to be grindfest but best builds require level 35-120 level (with only combat skills)
- its not fair that one build requires 35 level and other 120 level just because of how mechanic works - talking about 300% weapon skill need with 1 ST chars vs 180% weapon skill need with 6 ST chars
- level 120 for best build is too much leveling required, some players doesnt have enough time to lvl up that much, should they be in disadvantage ? before you did get level 24 and you was on same boat as all other players..

[Mad Matt]

I'm okay with that what dear Seki said, its quiet balanced, but has some disadventage like gaps in levels between some builds. Anyway I'm afraid we will have some changes in STATS one way or another, devs "leaked" some info about it in one of their answers in new session suggestion or wipe announcment as I remember correctly. Still it will be with new session, so now no need to bother with this...

[Slowhand]

Imo: Players shall not take into consideration what is hard to implement and what is not. It's not their role. They should make their wishlist, put it in a readable form here and hope for the best

So, let's take smaller steps then: Do you like Daze as a debuff?

[Blarney]

there are so many players which are suggesting after like month of playing to full remake of combat system, remake of SPECIAL etc.. those suggestions will never be applied, game is working and balanced for this mechanic for years, better suggest some smaller changes, features, improvements

Yeah how dare they or anyone who hasn't played the game for exactly 2 or more years make a suggestion.

It's like they think this is a suggestions section or something.

If an idea is bad or not going to be applied it will be ignored or closed, I'm pretty sure you aren't the gatekeeper of information to the devs.. So when you say will never be applied, and game is working and balanced, that is your opinion.

[Kaaon]

no im not, im just sayint that those suggestions are going a bit crazy with those full remakes of X, Y lately, thats all

[Blarney]

I agree they can be over the top etc, and a lack of knowledge of internal mechanics can cause people to make some terrible suggestions, but that's all they are, no matter how much or how little effort is put into communicating the idea, it is just a thought or idea floating around, say you hate it or love it, but don't hate the suggestions page itself

I doubt kilgore would see a not very well thought through suggestion and implement it without concern etc, but one might influence how he thinks about an issue.

My thoughts on it are, the game is still in "development" (and may always be to some degree), I fear what I consider "bad ideas" being taken into consideration, but I have to respect peoples ability to express their concerns.

[Blarney]

what i dont like and is connected with INT is gap between levels needed for some builds and also level needed to make some builds
everywhere i read that this game is not supposed to be grindfest but best builds require level 35-120 level (with only combat skills)
- its not fair that one build requires 35 level and other 120 level just because of how mechanic works - talking about 300% weapon skill need with 1 ST chars vs 180% weapon skill need with 6 ST chars
- level 120 for best build is too much leveling required, some players doesnt have enough time to lvl up that much, should they be in disadvantage ? before you did get level 24 and you was on same boat as all other players..

This whole part here I think we (and others) are in very solid agreement on, and really deserves it's own post (in suggestions). I think there is a lot to be discussed about this issue.

You are seemingly very knowledgeable when it comes to the game mechanics, so your input on them is definitely of higher value than most, just use your knowledge to shut down or open up an idea with logic, it's not insulting to point out true variables and the like.

[Chosen One]

did i missed some worst suggestion possible competition announcement ?

No you were there.
I kinda like this idea; they really fucking rung your bells, right? Effects how clear you see the world.

But it's not really possible to implement, and other things won't get done chasing this idea.