FOnline: Reloaded
Development => Suggestions => Topic started by: Blarney on January 19, 2015, 05:50:35 pm
-
I've heard there was some intention to change sneak in the future and I just wanted to open this topic on what people had heard, what people expect/want and maybe perhaps some dev input (even if its just to tell us it's none of our business and we should shut up about it :D )
My thoughts;
Personally I think getting sneak to 300 is a huge investment that should be rewarded, and I also think that restricting sneaking to leather armors is good for balance. I also think that motion sensors are needed and a good idea, though they should be rare or very expensive (also disarmable, like a trap), but there should be ways to counter it (like sneak walking with silent running not revealing you until within 5 hexes or a perk made to help avoid them).
The weapon restrictions are a bit too heavy in my opinion, but some are needed for obvious reasons, though people bypassing the restrictions is not cool and could definitely do with a fix of some sort.
I think the value of sneak is undermined when we can get to level 500 and have almost an infinite pool of skillpoints with minimal intelligence, so I think raising the sneak requirements of sneak perks (and making them very important for real sneakers) could help from preventing everyone being an awesome sneaker by level 150. Stealth running and silent death in particular, if they required say 250 sneak to acquire for example then you would only have people intent on being a sneaker capable of the best sneaking.
Or perhaps capping sneak at 200 past level 24 could prevent everybody from eventually getting really good at sneaking?
Anyway, that's just some thoughts on sneaking, please share yours and help the discussion :)
-
I like the current armor requirements and penalties. I hear we will have special sneaker armor of some sort. How that will work I don't know.
Sneak requires very few perks. Ghost is useless, Silent Death is optional, and Silent Running is too easy to get before level 29 since it requires only 100 skill.
Weapon penalties are too easily bypassed as long as you keep them out of an active slot until you're in position to fire.
Stealth boys are also useless, as is Stealth Girl perk, since once you hit 300 sneak they give no real benefit.
There are a lot of possible solutions, but it depends on which problem we're trying to fix.
At the moment sneaks are more predatory than scouts IMO.
-
I agree, sneakers should be more like a scouts and not some killing machines. I also like current armor+weapon sneak penalties, but maybe they should add "SMG" category for weapon penalties?
Ghost is useless, but Kilgore told last time that there won't be changes for it. Silent Running, I think there should be higher requirements for it.
-
I agree, sneakers should be scouts and not some killing machines. I also like current armor+weapon sneak penalties, but maybe they should add "SMG" category for weapon penalties?
Ghost is useless, but Kilgore told last time that there won't be changes for it. Silent Running, I think there should be higher requirements for it.
The thing is I can stand 30 hexes behind or to the side of you with an LSW in my inventory and then put it in my hand and nail you... the penalty doesn't matter, no one is dumb enough to run around with it in a hand slot.
I did this to a sniper in Reno the other day, crit for 306 with an LSW. It was retarded. Even worse, same mechanics apply to any BG including Bozar. That's just too much, if there is to be a weapon penalty it should count for your whole inventory (like active explosives penalty), not just the hand slots. JMHO
-
I agree, sneakers should be scouts and not some killing machines. I also like current armor+weapon sneak penalties, but maybe they should add "SMG" category for weapon penalties?
Ghost is useless, but Kilgore told last time that there won't be changes for it. Silent Running, I think there should be higher requirements for it.
The thing is I can stand 30 hexes behind or to the side of you with an LSW in my inventory and then put it in my hand and nail you... the penalty doesn't matter, no one is dumb enough to run around with it in a hand slot.
I did this to a sniper in Reno the other day, crit for 306 with an LSW. It was retarded. Even worse, same mechanics apply to any BG including Bozar. That's just too much, if there is to be a weapon penalty it should count for your whole inventory (like active explosives penalty), not just the hand slots. JMHO
But then you couldn't loot your kills.
Just fix the exploit I say, make it automatically unsneak once you put a BG in your hand, both first and second.
-
That would work, too. There is no one singular answer to anything, just spitballing.
-
Yeah once that exploit gets a fix or workaround I'd say the weapons will be okay at least. And a penalty for items in inventory isn't the worst idea, you probably shouldn't be able to mass loot as a sneaker, or if you do, you should be running for safety after looting (with impaired sneak).
I don't see why there would be the need to restrict more of sneakers weapon choices though, the one handed weapons rule is pretty good for what they are trying to achieve (with the exception of gauss pistol which kind of breaks the theme with its OP range etc). I would like to see other choices for sneakers become available to be honest, I don't like the idea of sneakers being relegated to scouting only, then the only characters using sneak will be scout alts, that's no fun.
Maybe a few weapons designed/redesigned for sneaking in mind specifically wouldn't go astray? I mean they should really have decent weapons (and rare great weapons) considering they are sacrificing a lot of armor, but obviously one-shotting people, heavy weapons and extreme range weapons should be out of the question for sneaks.
I like the current armor requirements and penalties. I hear we will have special sneaker armor of some sort. How that will work I don't know.
Sneak requires very few perks. Ghost is useless, Silent Death is optional, and Silent Running is too easy to get before level 29 since it requires only 100 skill.
Stealth boys are also useless, as is Stealth Girl perk, since once you hit 300 sneak they give no real benefit.
At the moment sneaks are more predatory than scouts IMO.
New armor sounds awesome :)
I agree that some of the stealth perks and items are useless for certain builds (though would a stealthboy negate the penalty for holding a rifle? Because that could be useful).
Sneaking in combat should be predatory unless your prey has huge sight range, a motion detector or sneaking friends, in either case you are mostly out of luck. Sneaking just for scouting sake doesn't intrigue me at all, though I'm sure there are plenty of dualloggers who only use it for that. :\
There are enough natural "counters" to sneak and even a sneak countering specific item that literally anyone can use, I don't see why they need such heavy leashes in all cases (unless 90% of players are PE 1, then I can see why there'd be hate :P )
-
I'm not saying sneaks should only be scouts, I'm saying right now they're weighted far too heavily in the other direction. Somewhere in the middle would be nice.
-
I guess it's arguable that the skillful side to sneak is getting very close without being seen, so perhaps that kind of play should be rewarded, if the range of your target can be used as a variable for calculating crit chance or damage for example I.E. the closer you sneak up on someone without being seen the more damage or better crit you will deal on that first shot, so say if silent death worked like that instead of simply from behind, silent death would become a must have for good sneakers and you could boost its requirements as a result, making only dedicated sneakers able to get access to it.
-
1- I think sneaking shouldn't be possible during combat timer.
2- They need to be easyer to spot (from front), 3 hexes is bullshit, the guy just hex you.
3- Sneaking should require more skill (for the player I mean), making the sneaker easy to spot when running too close, walking should be used (who runs toward ennemi when sneaking anyway? the closer you get the slower you move).
4- Sneakers should stay undetected as long as they are behind a target and walking (with max skill). Making melee sneak a good option. Walking from behind and hit the guy with a reaper.
5- Staying still should leave you invisible on motion sensor (because, yeah, it's a MOTION sensor, no motion, no detection)
6- Penalty from 2 handed weapons should be lowered for sniper rifle (at the cost of a perk maybe)
7- Cap sneak at 250 (with increased and more average efficiency). Below 250 sneak, you are almost always visible, the points between 250 and 300 make the difference. Reaching 300 when you don't have 8-10 INT is a pain in the ass for the players not using slave mining/autoclicking.
-
1. Agreed
2. It should be dependent on sight range and skill level (as I'm sure it already is).
3. I dont agree here, that kind of defeats the purpose of silent running.
4. Being invisible through walls would be cool, but probably OP and abuse-able.
5. while being undetectable while not moving makes sense, having a benefit for not moving might encourage dual logged spys etc. But I agree that is how it should work, it should also detect someone walking less easily, say from 7 hexes instead. :)
6. While i would love to have a sniper rifle on my sneaker I can see why they have "nerfed" the ability for sneaks to do so, maybe a sneaker specific rifle for both SG and EW would be nice though.
7. I think it should be difficult to get high sneak, if you want a sneaker you should need INT (as it is the only stat for skill points) that is one of the sacrifices involved in being a sneaker.
I really think scaling it out so that only someone with 6-7 or more int can get to max sneak if they concentrate on it very heavily in the first 24 levels, then cutting off the ability to increase sneak past 200 at level 24, so you end up with specialised sneakers, and everyone else can still boost sneak, just not to perfection.
-
Well if you have an alt with 10pe + sharpshooter you detect a sneaker at front of you at 18 hexes distance. this is quite balanced imo. a sneaker is the best choice for taking out snipers.. and snipers shouldnt be out in the wild alone either. otherwise you mostly can do shit as a sneaker when enemies team up and dont do bullshit. same for snipers. both fulfill their role quite good.
if you want to weaken sneakers maybe make them need one more perk like u can raise sneak with skillpoints only up to 250. and you can bypass the cap only with another perk.
-
Well if you have an alt with 10pe + sharpshooter you detect a sneaker at front of you at 18 hexes distance. this is quite balanced imo. a sneaker is the best choice for taking out snipers.. and snipers shouldnt be out in the wild alone either. otherwise you mostly can do shit as a sneaker when enemies team up and dont do bullshit. same for snipers. both fulfill their role quite good.
if you want to weaken sneakers maybe make them need one more perk like u can raise sneak with skillpoints only up to 250. and you can bypass the cap only with another perk.
I'm starting to agree that sneakers should have a 2 perk minimum to be optimal. Your suggestion would certainly do that, as long as only the perk can take you into 300, not stealthboys etc.
But even if that perk (ghost would be perfect as a replacement) did exist, some builds may also need silent death, which really strains their choices. 2 perks is a worthy sacrifice for being partially visible, but 3 seems too much.
-
I'm starting to agree that sneakers should have a 2 perk minimum to be optimal. Your suggestion would certainly do that, as long as only the perk can take you into 300, not stealthboys etc.
Kilgore told in some post, that sneaking will be item depend skill (or something like that)
Silent Running is awesome perk for sneakers, but everyone is able to take it (requirement is just 100% sneak, and no SPECIAL requirements) and almost everyone can become sneaker, which is stupid.
+1 for reworked Ghost perk.
Anyway, most of sneaking changes will be for PvP and I don't really mind that (in some point there was a lot arguments about sneaking in PvP and Kilgore started took action), I have totally different usage for it.
-
I like the idee of a reworked ghost perk giving +50 sneak skill allowing to bypass a 250 cap. That makes you take an additionnal perk and get's you char ready sooner.
But having high perception isn't really a protection against sneakers, as sniper are mostly paperbuilds easy to kill on range with 3 p90 bursts, if not 2.
-
Kilgore told in some post, that sneaking will be item depend skill (or something like that)
Anyway, most of sneaking changes will be for PvP and I don't really mind that (in some point there was a lot arguments about sneaking in PvP and Kilgore started took action), I have totally different usage for it.
Sneaking dependent on an item? One would assume the stealthboy, but who knows. I don't know about that approach, as when it comes to items obviously the rich will have an abundance and the poor little to none, I wouldn't want sneaking falling into an elitist only category.
Thanks for the info and input :)
If you don't mind me asking what do you use sneak for? I personally use it in solo combat when visiting dangerous towns etc.
-
Why is your name "blarney"?
-
Ehh not many people use sneaks in anything but to check positions.
-
Why is your name "blarney"?
Strange question, I guess because I chose it to be that.
If you have the rights to the name barney or any barney related usages in names, I'll gladly have it changed ;)
If you are asking if there is any specific meaning to the name, I'd say no.
-
Ehh not many people use sneaks in anything but to check positions.
Off the top of my head I can think of a half dozen players that use their sneaks offensively as well as for scouting, and I'm sure there are more.
Their use isn't the main issue so much as the investment vs reward IMO.
-
investment vs reward
basically a leather jacket and a p90 vs combat gear, maybe good armor and weapons, ammo, stims, a set of drugs.
-
investment vs reward
basically a leather jacket and a p90 vs combat gear, maybe good armor and weapons, ammo, stims, a set of drugs.
I mean perks and (infinite) skill points as well.
It was different when we had a level cap. High IN was required, usually Skilled trait as well. Ghost used to work, leaving us only about 5 other perks to work with, and maybe max 180-200 weapons skill.
It was better balanced then, IMO.
-
It was different when we had a level cap. High IN was required, usually Skilled trait as well. Ghost used to work, leaving us only about 5 other perks to work with, and maybe max 180-200 weapons skill.
It was better balanced then, IMO.
True, exp gained from private mine and crafting stuff with autoclickers broke that balance. Still, I like the infinite lvl thing. The proplem is "how to get those lvls?". Maybe crafting should work like first aid, giving exp, but only until your reach lvl 30 (I think it's 30, not sure). Getting to lvl 100 would require a lot more time, and a 2 INT sneaker would be a bad choice again.
-
It was different when we had a level cap. High IN was required, usually Skilled trait as well. Ghost used to work, leaving us only about 5 other perks to work with, and maybe max 180-200 weapons skill.
It was better balanced then, IMO.
True, exp gained from private mine and crafting stuff with autoclickers broke that balance. Still, I like the infinite lvl thing. The proplem is "how to get those lvls?". Maybe crafting should work like first aid, giving exp, but only until your reach lvl 30 (I think it's 30, not sure). Getting to lvl 100 would require a lot more time, and a 2 INT sneaker would be a bad choice again.
I like the no level cap thing as well, I just feel like not everything was fully balanced as a result of that (good) change.
If not much changes for sneakers next session I'll still be happy, and I'll continue to play one either way.
My current sneaker was base 4 IN, also. Leveled totally without autoclicker as well. :)
-
As much as I like the no level cap, it literally breaks the ideal behind skillpoints seeing as they are the only thing you get past level 24. All skills are somewhat available to everyone with the only restriction being time spent grinding, which is weird.
Taking a high int is really at your own direct loss, as if you take 8-10 int, you will soon find (level 90ish) that you have way too many skillpoints and the next 300 levels become literally pointless.
This is why I wouldn't mind so much if they added a soft skill cap or something to prevent the eventual maxing of most skills by everyone.
-
You mean something like in AOP?
I liked that change, making int really usefull.
-
I agree, sneakers should be scouts and not some killing machines. I also like current armor+weapon sneak penalties, but maybe they should add "SMG" category for weapon penalties?
Ghost is useless, but Kilgore told last time that there won't be changes for it. Silent Running, I think there should be higher requirements for it.
The thing is I can stand 30 hexes behind or to the side of you with an LSW in my inventory and then put it in my hand and nail you... the penalty doesn't matter, no one is dumb enough to run around with it in a hand slot.
I did this to a sniper in Reno the other day, crit for 306 with an LSW. It was retarded. Even worse, same mechanics apply to any BG including Bozar. That's just too much, if there is to be a weapon penalty it should count for your whole inventory (like active explosives penalty), not just the hand slots. JMHO
This.
I remember we fought sneakers with bozars. It's not fun to fight with invisible burster, who can kill tank with 2-3 bursts from afar.
I also don't like that sneaker can go around with some crap stuff and still be very dangerous. They can kill well equipped fighter having only leather jacket and some crappy SMG...
IMO sneak should be capped at 200-250 and to get 300 sneak you should have special sneaker gear (sneaker armor + stealthboy).
And as Wind_Drift already said, the weapon penalty should be for whole inventory, not only for hand slots.
-
I have absolutly no experience in sneak its been 2 days i play a sneaker to try new things and i must say its the more fun character to play.
I agree with the fact that most of the kills you do with a seaker are very retarded. Kirkor is right to mention it, wih a sneak you grab a crap leather armor a p90 and you can basically wreck havoc anywhere. Damage of the p90 with 3 brd is absolutly insane.
P90 is okay since it really does damage if you get close but you shouldnt be able to be a walking turret with bozar or avenger.
And as Wind_Drift already said, the weapon penalty should be for whole inventory, not only for hand slots.
It will prevent bozar sneaker or lsw or avenger yes, but what if you kill a guy with an avenger loot it, your sneak skill got a penalty someone else pop up and see you from 30hex and kill you :-\
Skill cap at 250 + stealth boy to get 300 is a good idea if stealth boyz can be farmed (for example like in ares but in bigger quantities?)
-
Stealth Boy requirement would also work if they were rechargeable and reusable instead of just one-time use items.
The idea behind making the sneak penalty apply to BG in inventory is because the current penalty is so easily bypassed that it effectively doesn't matter. There is probably more than one solution though, I suppose we'll see what happens, if anything.
-
Posts in this thread only ensure me that changes which will be done to sneak skill are good. Even if it means that sneak will be nerfed a lot.
-
Posts in this thread only ensure me that changes which will be done to sneak skill are good. Even if it means that sneak will be nerfed a lot.
I don't get your point, I just see people want nerf sneaking in PvP combat:
- Sneaking shouldn't be possible during combat timer (Just like you cannot sneaking during TB combat, RT should be the same during combat timer)
- Weapon penalty should be for whole inventory, not only for hand slots (Most important for sneaking nerf)
And other things from mojuk:
- P90 being penalty free and one of top hexing weapon is really bad idea.
- Min. visibility distance vs max perception chars (especially from behind) is just a joke.
- Sneakers should be for scouting or some support fire in fights for example grenades, not invisible killing machines being basically normal pvp character but invisible.
And maybe sneak vs perception penalty should be checked again:
Direction of the opponent has big impact, basically, the area around opponent is divided into four parts, and each part modifies your sneak skill value as follows:
Front: -72
Front-sides: -36
Back-sides: -12
Back: 0
There should be penalty from behind (You can hear someone is behind you), and others sides should have higher penalty.
How those changes would be good for sneakers? I think sneakers would just suffer in combat, and more likely there will be less them.
Also allow desert combat armors to sneak with penalty of -20.
Is this even serious suggestion?
-
My opinion is simple. Remove weapom wielding penalties and bring back old weight divider. Example every 1 kg more than 10 will affect skill of sneak by -10. Also allow desert combat armors to sneak with penalty of -20. If u dont want running bg /gattling sneakers make it so they are forced to walk. My suggestion will be probably rejected becouse of requirement to make new scripts and rollback to purely SDK sneak divider.
-
Strike, the point isn't to make anything better for sneakers, the point of the suggestions are to improve gameplay overall. Right now with our current mechanics, it's far too easy to kill any build except for PA tanks in any moderately sized map. Position and surprise are both huge advantages, and being nearly invisible makes both very easy to accomplish. I say all of these things from the perspective of a player whose main alt is a sneaker, and have several more high level (150 ish) sneak alts.
Just my opinion, but I came by it honestly.
To me it sounds like Kilgore already has his mind set on changes, and we'll just have to see what he's going to give us to work with.
-
Use motion sensors. Sneak divider would make players carry low amount of loot - some p90 and one mag there would be no ninja looting and anal surprises with lsw.
-
I'll agree that a weight based stealth penalty system would be much easier to manage, and a lot harder to exploit. But I do have to say that the weight levels need to be set properly for this to work. 5kg robes and misc items break this ideal pretty quickly if 1 kg equals roughly -10 sneak (leather armor mk 2 weighs about 4 kg and the lightest pistols still weigh about 2 kg). The weight system in place has to make sense is what I'm getting at, which can make the weight system more difficult.
-
Use motion sensors. Sneak divider would make players carry low amount of loot - some p90 and one mag there would be no ninja looting and anal surprises with lsw.
When wipe happens I highly doubt motion sensors would be common
-
weight based system isnt good because it must be frustrating for sneaker that he cant loot or take anything and care about CW all the time
what about 2handed penalty on weapons in inventory too and not only hands ?
also sneakers must be visible from longer range ofc
-
imo sneak shouldnt be able to loot nor kill with firearms (maybe except some pistols).
-
Sneakers aren't hoarders or junk caravans.
Do you think a sneaker would carry 25 cans of coke, Jingle bells? (caps), Several sets of unused weapons and armor?
IMO sneakers should be able to be turrets with a 100-200 penalty based on weight when moving, this penalty is a debuff due to movement that goes away after say 15 seconds while the sneaker settles in like
http://sploid.gizmodo.com/can-you-find-the-sniper-hiding-with-camouflage-in-this-1521876239
A master sneaker can sneak anywhere IMO.
But if a sneaker doesn't have more than a certain weight say 5-7KG then they'll suffer no penalties and make good scouts.
-
Posts in this thread only ensure me that changes which will be done to sneak skill are good. Even if it means that sneak will be nerfed a lot.
How did I miss the kilgore post lol, only found it on second read through :facepalm
I am curious as to the direction and specifics of the nerfs (or even just your rough idea of how sneaking will work).
Weight based sneaking? Easier sneaker spotting? Harder to master sneaking? Or all/none of the above?