HtH changes

[Kilgore]

Well You play like noob on Your sniper, so when You got weapon drop, You run into enemy xD

Don't start forum pvp outside thunderdome or you will be in the world ruled by banhammer.

[Troll]

Melee needs some armor penetration like firearms, now it's nothing or retarded bypass.

[Blarney]

So you're basically saying "Let's just buff HtH damage and all is good" or "fuck melees, lets just use miniguns and completely ignore melees" I remember back in 2238 people actually used Super Sledges during PvP because it was fun to send them across the map and KOing them and doing damage actually. Good if people start actually using melees, its a shame to see those melee blueprints to go to waste.

No, I'm saying with the way 1 hexing works it basically makes melee useless, I'm also saying that i agree that it shouldn't be useless, but that an easier solution could probably be found than editing all the perks, like the guy above suggested with armor pen, or maybe giving more viable melee weapons 2 hex or even 3 hex range.

Because everyone has 10 INT + Educated perk, ESPECIALLY the PvP alts 

Be realistic here...

5 int and level 30 = 275 of any gun skill... almost 300 if you are SG with books, it's really not that hard.

[Gooseberry]

Because everyone has 10 INT + Educated perk, ESPECIALLY the PvP alts 

Be realistic here...

5 int and level 30 = 275 of any gun skill... almost 300 if you are SG with books, it's really not that hard.
[/quote]

5 int yes. But the average pvp build has 1 or 2 int, no more. And with that im ignoring other skills a pvp build has to raise, such as doctor and first aid. Asking somoene for 300% gunskill is in fact unrealistic. Unless you are refering to the few who have characters level 100+.

[mkhammer]

Maybe extra perks for weapons which would raise chance to blind(brass knuckles), criple(ripper). Different weapon- unique perk?

[Koniko]

0.7 time of full run animation should do the job. Also perhaps make silent death work from any direction ? Sneak is anyway easily detectable.

[Gooseberry]

Maybe extra perks for weapons which would raise chance to blind(brass knuckles), criple(ripper). Different weapon- unique perk?

That would be usseful yes. Being capable of getting close to your enemy should be rewarded, not punished with awfull damage.

0.7 time of full run animation should do the job. Also perhaps make silent death work from any direction ? Sneak is anyway easily detectable.

This would also be helpfull. Allow melee builds to act quicker to increase their chances of survival. Slow animations is something a melee char really doesn't need.

[salty_captain]

please dont change animation speeds. I like how mkhammer is thinking with the cripples and weapon perks.

Melee criticals actually do pretty good damage if its a good roll, but you have to take a lot of perks.

[Blarney]

5 int yes. But the average pvp build has 1 or 2 int, no more. And with that im ignoring other skills a pvp build has to raise, such as doctor and first aid. Asking somoene for 300% gunskill is in fact unrealistic. Unless you are refering to the few who have characters level 100+.

So dumping to 1 or 2 int reduces the amount of skillpoints available at lower level and makes getting to 300 skill impossible at that range.. Which can be avoided by taking more int (even just temporarily) to get access to more skills.

If you are going to play a build that requires a lot of skillpoints, you either need a lot of intelligence or a lot of levels. "Most pvp builds" suggest the 1 or 2 int because it is the literal bare minimum and the most optimal usage of special points, I'm sure they would also suggest being level 100 and having all the implants too but it doesn't mean the end of the world if you dont have them, just like it doesn't mean the end of the world if you can't meet the 1 or 2 int requirement to have the exactly perfect pvp build for a while...

[sulix]

+1 Runspeed     because everyone can run away if he sees things turn bad. change weapon and shoot to keep combattimer on doesnt really work.   maybe a small rangeboost 2hex may solve the problem too....  Idk ... but i hate it, when someone run away and even if he runs in a circle i will never reach him/her until he stops running because there is no time to start my hitamination.

[Yuno-Gasai]

No, I'm saying with the way 1 hexing works it basically makes melee useless, I'm also saying that i agree that it shouldn't be useless, but that an easier solution could probably be found than editing all the perks, like the guy above suggested with armor pen, or maybe giving more viable melee weapons 2 hex or even 3 hex range.

If melee's got an armor pen, they'll still be in the same situation with the "one hex" This is why I suggested for In Your Face perk to lower max hit chance instead of having that RNG roll.

5 int and level 30 = 275 of any gun skill... almost 300 if you are SG with books, it's really not that hard.

Do you even PvP or just PvE crafter? It's also a waste to go past 200%, only exceptions are snipers...

So dumping to 1 or 2 int reduces the amount of skillpoints available at lower level and makes getting to 300 skill impossible at that range.. Which can be avoided by taking more int (even just temporarily) to get access to more skills.

If you are going to play a build that requires a lot of skillpoints, you either need a lot of intelligence or a lot of levels. "Most pvp builds" suggest the 1 or 2 int because it is the literal bare minimum and the most optimal usage of special points, I'm sure they would also suggest being level 100 and having all the implants too but it doesn't mean the end of the world if you dont have them, just like it doesn't mean the end of the world if you can't meet the 1 or 2 int requirement to have the exactly perfect pvp build for a while...

Less INT = better PvP alt, More INT = crappier PvP alt. I've made PvP alts with 4 INT and realized if I have taken 1 or 2, I could have had a better build.

+1 Runspeed     because everyone can run away if he sees things turn bad. change weapon and shoot to keep combattimer on doesnt really work.   maybe a small rangeboost 2hex may solve the problem too....  Idk ... but i hate it, when someone run away and even if he runs in a circle i will never reach him/her until he stops running because there is no time to start my hitamination.

With the new grenade feature, throwing grenades to knock them down, and keep them from running would be good. Sadly frags cost more AP than the plasma, have weak knockback, and do weak damage...

Maybe extra perks for weapons which would raise chance to blind(brass knuckles), criple(ripper). Different weapon- unique perk?

This would be a good idea. If you had play Ashes of Phoenix, each melee weapon has a different trait/perks. Rippers are used to cost massive bleed and chance to cripple while super sledges knockdown the enemy or KO them.

So how You can ballance melee ? Give them uber dmg? Uber resist? Main problem of melee is range so?

Maybe that speed boost is a bit too high(20%) but about 10 % would be nice.

I do think melee's should get a damage boost + the character perks are too weak. I don't see how running speed will make melee's good. Lets look out FOnline 2 for example, do you actually see anyone using a super sledge or mega power fist in PvP other than sneakers and the same 3 people that use them? No, everyone just abuses the run speed feature with their PvP chars to run away and shit. Hell, the only melee weapon sneakers use are the super cattle prods, everyone is taking some XL or LSW sneaker.


The only thing I see for melee's to actually be used during PvP would be a damage buff + the ability to regain action points while on the move.

Think of the situations melee builds get in. They face a pistolero and just end up getting their leg crippled and basically lose the fight there, unless RNG gods hate the pistolero he'll reach him, but then after 2-3 hits they go on a wild goose chase till the pistolero leaves to WM. A good melee perk would be if your arms and legs were suddenly toothpicks and makes their aimed hit chance lowered if aimed for a limb (excluding the eyes)

If melee builds fight bursters, the burster will just range burst him 2x (3x if SG) then run, run...unless the melee build throws grenades that actually do damage + knockback he'll have a chance, but then again he'll be at risk of getting one hexed by this burster.

[Troll]

Think of the situations melee builds get in. They face a pistolero and just end up getting their leg crippled and basically lose the fight there, unless RNG gods hate the pistolero he'll reach him, but then after 2-3 hits they go on a wild goose chase till the pistolero leaves to WM. A good melee perk would be if your arms and legs were suddenly toothpicks and makes their aimed hit chance lowered if aimed for a limb (excluding the eyes)

Any decent aimshooter will have good hit chance at mid/low range, unless that aim malus is retarded. Leg cripples are hard to score, harder than anything else. You can have a HTH tank which uses powerfist KD, but as soon as its not 1 vs 1 it becames useless. If you dont want ppl to run away, make it sneaker instead of tank.

If melee's got an armor pen, they'll still be in the same situation with the "one hex" This is why I suggested for In Your Face perk to lower max hit chance instead of having that RNG roll.

Hit chance cap instead of roll. It's a good idee. You will have very weak hex damage instead of 0 or full damage. Maybe cap at 40%? Also bursting on range will be dangerous for the knocked down team mate, unless a non hex burst xeapon is used like lsw or pancor.

[Blarney]

If melee's got an armor pen, they'll still be in the same situation with the "one hex" This is why I suggested for In Your Face perk to lower max hit chance instead of having that RNG roll.

Could do it, IDK, but that was also why I suggested adding 1 or 2 hexes of range to some of the more viable melee weapons, to distinguish them from 1 hex bursters (as lets face it, as ridiculous as 1 hex bursts are they aren't going anywhere on this server).

1 hex bursters are rewarded hugely for getting a 1 hex off and they still can fire from a distance.. Melee is getting plain ripped off, we are in agreement here.

No, everyone just abuses the run speed feature with their PvP chars to run away and shit.

The only thing I see for melee's to actually be used during PvP would be a damage buff + the ability to regain action points while on the move.

This... Any feature like regening ap or faster movement will just be abused unless it is very specifically scripted, which could be done, and could be interesting if literally only melee's could take advantage.

My main thoughts in my response were that 1hexing just plain dwarfs melee, which is quite lame, and that quick and possibly messy fixes could be made by either boosting melee damage to near or over 1 hex potential with skills and perks, or giving it more range than 1 hex, which could make all the difference in pvp if you can knock someone down without risking being 1hexed by that person.

HtH Evade / HtH Evade + - Each perk makes the shooters max hit chance decrease by 20%, Example, I shoot someone with both perks my max hit chance is 95 - 40 = 55% max hit chance. Yes there will be bluesuit trolls but ctrl shooting will be a good counter to them. Remember both hands (active slots) must be empty

This is the thing that worried me most of all. In combination with other traits and perks there would be some silly bluesuit trolling and more inventory shenanigans going on, which we could stand to avoid. Bare hands should be shit all the time IMO, buffing people for taking nothing incentivises risking nothing.

I'm thinking of it in terms of; what is the least abusable and easiest way to buff melee, as a viable combat skill, and not as a trolling device

[Sperber]

A perk that gives AP recovery while running if you wield nothing or melee weapons in both slots.

or

An additional normal damage resistance perk which only works if you wield nothing or melee weapons in both slots.

Melee damage actually isn't that bad though if you build for crits.
The only real problem is getting close but even that isn't so bad if you sneak and/or use cover effectively.

[Yuno-Gasai]

A perk that gives AP recovery while running if you wield nothing or melee weapons in both slots.

IMO the player should be wielding a melee weapon to regain AP's. Maybe each 5 hexes the character runs, he gains an AP.

An additional normal damage resistance perk which only works if you wield nothing or melee weapons in both slots.

Melee damage actually isn't that bad though if you build for crits.
The only real problem is getting close but even that isn't so bad if you sneak and/or use cover effectively.

That's the problem with melee. You HAVE to be a critical build if you wanna do some damage, but you have to sacrifice HP and Damage resistance which should be changed. If you're not a critical build then everyone plays heavy handed mega power fist which is stupid.

Bruiser should be changed to +2 STR and +20 melee damage and some downside. Losing 2 action points is actually a lot, especially when you have to do aimed with melee. Heavy handed should do more melee damage instead of just knockdowns (which basically only works with the mega power fist).

Maybe changing Tree Trunk Thighs to Tree trunk man where you shrug off groin, legs and arms shots that requires like 150% melee. Hit The Gaps should be changed too IMO, that 25% modifier doesn't seem to do much (or nothing at all).

OVERALL, I suggest these changes

Bruiser - change from +4 STR, - 2AP to +2 STR, +10-20 melee damage, some downside (dunno)
Bonus HtH damage - change from +7 to +15
Tree Trunk Thighs - Instead of just legs, include groin and legs (ONLY WORKS IF MELEE IS TAGGED, 150%, not even sure if this perk will remain ingame)
More HtH Criticals - 15% to 20%
Hit The Gaps - +15 crit roll if weapon has penetrate perk
HtH Evade, + - each perk removes 20% max hit chance from shooters max hit chance. If shooter has 200% weapon skill, they gain 5% hit chance, 220 - 10%, 235+ - 15%
In your face - Lowers shooters max hit chance to 75% if 2 hexes away, 50% if 1 hex away

Now if some melee weapons got a buff (Ripper, Super Sledge, Lil jesus, super cattle prod, some spear with 3 hexes)