Single Shots in TB

[Gorishimo]

Thanks for the feedback BB and to everyone else although I've been here for a month I'm not too familiar with previous mechanics.
How'd we get to 1 AP weapons? was it because of crafting bonuses or the addition of fast shot? Will PM if I don't get a reply here in a day or two.

I think it was the Fast Shot, Bonus Rate of Fire, -1 AP custom weapon combo giving players 1AP shots. Now they just put a restriction on it that it always cost a minumum of 2. Wich I think works. With the current system I can even have my non Fast Shot charachters shoot for 2AP (due to the -1 AP custom weapons).

But I am not sure.

[mojuk]

Then we need an AP cap 28 AP is ridiculous.

It's a 14 AP char that (ab)uses TB mechanics and starts TB fight with v.high sequence which gives him 2 turns. With 1ap/shot it gives 28 shots in a row.
Character AP is not a problem here. 1 AP guns is a problem. It always took 2 AP to shot and it was more or less good because other TB builds could compete with that. Now it's only about who shot first. With weapon bonuses spammers became a problem when you could get down to 1 AP.

[GenericoScout]

But from my POV that's still an issue with TB, Its hard to see how things would be different if the 2 AP per shot came back. since first shot still would win.

It becomes 28 shots to 14. To most players 10 is already too much. An AP cap is what TB needs if people don't want to die in one round.

TB has always been about who shot first really. Equip still matters a bit either way just a little more if there are no more 1 ap weapons but then fast shot becomes more worthless than charisma.

[mojuk]

But from my POV that's still an issue with TB, Its hard to see how things would be different if the 2 AP per shot came back. since first shot still would win.

It becomes 28 shots to 14. To most players 10 is already too much. An AP cap is what TB needs if people don't want to die in one round.

TB has always been about who shot first really. Equip still matters a bit either way just a little more if there are no more 1 ap weapons but then fast shot becomes more worthless than charisma.

Issue with TB is that it exists.

If you do AP cap (however you imagine that) to lets say what? 7AP? Than you still got 7 shots (1AP), if you start fight you will get 14 shots which is same as if you change back to 2AP/shot. While you limit AP because of spammers you hurt other chars because they will only be able to attack once in their turn. AP cap is not a way to even improve TB combat, not to mention about fixing it's main problems.

Issue with sequence is just how TB combat works. And if you start fight by camping or just simply better reflex of position you will always have the upper hand. You can try to change that for example by making more random spawns and place them at some distance between each other.

It's been said many time already - 1 AP spammers have to go away.

[Kirkor]

Yeah! Whine about tb traps! Nerf fast shot and then go farm enclave patrols or bounty hunters alone......
this is shitty idea IMO, why? it will destroy PvE on Reloaded, but who will listen me....

Well, you shouldn't be able to farm Enclave alone

Still, even with restriction of minimum 2AP per shot, the Fast Shot trait is stil very good, as it gives you damage bonus (you never get "no damage" hits, which is quite essential for spammers) and you can use weapons without AP bonus with same efficiency.

Anyway, I would totally get rid of TB, as it takes away alot of fun & playability from the game. The enclave would be challange in RT, but in TB its piece of cake, mindless grinding.
TB takes away the challange, and games are fun if they are challenging. It also gives alot of balance issues and makes things harder for devs...

[GenericoScout]

From my POV you're just telling me this is about RT vs TB not the single shots themselves. So why nerve this when you want to just get rid of the entire system? Just leave it alone and advocate for separation from RT and TB players everyone will be happier if you don't try to drag us down with you guys.

That's not a good reason to nerve TB IMO, of course only Kilgore's opinion matters
The AP caping at 16 would be more reasonable then being able to go to like 32 and above.

I'm only playing the game because of TB which reminds me of the original Fallout games. RT would be cool if this game was based upon tactic's engine. But as is I don't find the game to be all that great in RT, I'm not sure what kind of tactics you guys can do aside from run, wait, run, shoot.

As a TB player I fire, take cover if needed, move, then fire as needed.

I've gotten no damage hits with Fast shot, And while yes you can use no AP bonus weapons with the same effectiveness that still doesn't change that AP bonus weapons now aren't worth a dime more than the rest with the nerf. Fast shot will become a burden when I can get another trait like good natured for more companions

Never knew that fast shot imparted a damage bonus, gotta check the wiki. However you still lose aimed shots which means losing more damage potential and status effects.

Now I never said I wanted to leave 1AP weapons the way they are now. Or at least if I didn't make that clear I definitely don't support - 1AP weapons as they are now(B.B.'s comment made me remove my excpetion of Pashtuurs). If there's a limit of how many 1 AP single shots one can take say 3 per round then only bursts or 2 AP afterwards I'd be fine with that entirely since that's what I do often. I like 1AP because of the freedom it imparts more so than the damage dealt. You know how frustrating it is when you down deathclaws but don't get a single EXP point for all your work cause you can't spend enough AP for a shot? Next turn and someone or something else delivers the coupe de grace. Of course the otherside of the coin is EXp stealing. Maybe everyone in a party should share EXP to some extent like 75% the kill blow and 25% divided to the rest.

I still believe that 2AP per shot is NOT THE RIGHT answer to the Spamming issue especially since its TB oriented the issue will still be here. However, that does mean alot more coding to put in say equipment checks. However, there's plenty of time to change things, and chances are this game will constantly be changing. I think the devs would rather put in more effort in keeping 25% of the veteran players and 90% of the newbies.

I would actually disagree that one player shouldn't be able to solo most encounters alone after your BS about tactics its pretty obvious you don't believe in them. But as for a challenge if impossible is a high enough goal then that's your poison I like games where you can be on the edge sometimes and on top pushing down at times. If you have ever PK'd a newbie and someone tougher than you I'm sure you understand what I'm talking about.

 If the nerve does pop in I'll just continue to multilog in PVE with my Squad of snipers. So then it won't matter if there is a nerve for farming except that I'd need to put in more coordination between my alt net. I'm more so peeved that the reasoning behind nerving TB is because of RT players mad at TB traps not the single shots alone.

If you honestly cared about the PVE aspect alone then you'd be willing to change it not get rid of it. At anyrate if having a compromise would take up the Dev's time what would you propose that they work on instead with their free time? reinstating the system they removed?

I'd probably be ok with removing TB if during RT AP regenerated as I ran or did things, having better AI would be a must since most weapon user NPC's seem to think that they need to get close enough to melee me for some reason.

In RT the AC system is kind of broken IMO, keep moving and they'll never touch you even with burst fire.

[Gorishimo]

I've gotten no damage hits with Fast shot, And while yes you can use no AP bonus weapons with the same effectiveness that still doesn't change that AP bonus weapons now aren't worth a dime more than the rest with the nerf. Fast shot will become a burden when I can get another trait like good natured for more companions

In my opinion you are wrong about that, the -AP buff on custom weapons is great. Characters can now skip the Fast Shot trait or the Bonus rate of Fire perk and still shoot for 2AP with serten weapons. If you know how, you can greatly exploit this in combat.

E; Kirkor would you be oke with TB if the amount of shots one could make during TB be limited to four, and setting everyones sequence the same so no two turn exploits could be done?

[GenericoScout]

Ambushes should just mean you shot first maybe 3-4 extra AP but near double extra is just insane even if the other party gets a double turn. Four shots a round and the removal of extra AP ambushes is ok with me. Although I was thinking more along the lines of 6-8 to burst twice then reload and fire. But since Fast shot or other bonuses aren't nerved I'd be fine with a paltry 4 especially if TB and RT won't get mixed up together in combat.

Although to say about the other TB players is another matter.

The thing is if the 2 AP minimum is instated EITHER Fast shot will be worthless or -AP bonuses will be worthless. Now if you didn't have one or another with the nerve yes they'd be great tools. But both is a redundant waste of resources.

[gnjisa]

As we said, TB PvP is all about who shoots first. Be it 1 ap spammer or burster, you are dead, if you do not act first, because of the sequence thing.

But I don't see why people are concerned about PVE fights that can be done in TB mode at all, when the best PvE sitautions (the ones with the best rewards) are done in RT and very often require grouping (I am still able to solo some, but ie. V15 can't be done solo by me).

The thing I liked about Fonline reloaded was, you could do most of the in-game things solo. I am playing from the place where it's impossible for me to engage in any serious grouping as it mostly requires stable connection and some form of voice chat. I see this change as +1 factor of forcing the certain game style (grouping), and not quite pleased with that.

[BB.]

I don't see why people are concerned about PVE fights that can be done in TB mode at all, when the best PvE sitautions (the ones with the best rewards) are done in RT and very often require grouping (I am still able to solo some, but ie. V15 can't be done solo by me).

+1
I really like TB gaming (some tactic and chill playing, bringing exp and stuff like CAMKII ). 1AP-sequence builds kinda ruin the idea and that's why it need to be changed. However I can't agree with your point of view to delete TB completely. It's just a different style of playing that many people set above RT, or sets it equal like I do.

[GenericoScout]

Kilgore has confirmed that he'll never remove TB from the game :3.