Post by: KestreL on May 21, 2015, 01:22:10 pm
Discription: This perk caps your enemies damage resistance at 60% on all resistances. Usage of such perk would be to give Avenger Minigun a perpose in killing mega tanks. And other weapons when fighting Tesla.
Note: this perk does not effect anyone with lower than 60% DR. The perk its-self has advantage and disadvantage. Anti tank perk.
My thoughts on this? I hear alot of people complaining about weapon balance on this server. And everything seems to be working just great at 60% DR. This perk should be for them. While not at all being over-powered.
Also, I encourage you to think about the suggestion before auto reflex -1 it like all other suggestions people post.
Does not work with finesse
Post by: Adams on May 21, 2015, 01:26:54 pm
Post by: Mad Matt on May 21, 2015, 01:33:22 pm
Post by: KestreL on May 21, 2015, 01:42:48 pm
I'm afraid we would be in need of more EW weapons to introduce it...adding it to TPR and/or PR would be nice idea, but it would make it lil' bit OP in my opinion. Or rather the only usefull gun in-game
Gatling is DR 65% all the time. so it would change nothing.
Turbo plasma rifle is firing at 50-60% plasma res all the time unless enemy has Tesla.
This goes for almost all weapons ingame, but the perk would be usefull to fight vs adreinaline rush to get a more stable dmg. Also to make Avengers somewhat usefull
Also, about turbo plasma rifle / PR - At the moment they are hitting combat helmet MK II with 35% plasma res for stable dmg. If enemy wears tesla it would be double that. So plasma rifle would still be shit against tesla with or without perk.
Post by: Wind_Drift on May 21, 2015, 01:44:02 pm
+1
Post by: Mad Matt on May 21, 2015, 01:47:30 pm
Sorry guys, if I said something wrong. I was wondering if it's possible to add some new, special gun with ability as you said. I just forget about that Gatling :facepalm....
Anyway it's true, it would be quiet usefull...more than now...
If done properly and added after testing, than +1 from me on this idea guys :D
Post by: Adams on May 21, 2015, 02:13:44 pm
Post by: ravenp on May 21, 2015, 02:16:40 pm
overall plus 1
Post by: KestreL on May 21, 2015, 02:24:03 pm
it should require more perks or would be added to brds idk but 1 perk for 30 less enemy resis is 2 much
overall plus 1
It is also a perk that remove 0% dr from 50% of builds ingame.
Post by: ravenp on May 21, 2015, 02:27:11 pm
Post by: BB. on May 21, 2015, 06:37:55 pm
While not at all being over-powered.Lol. Against 50% of the server population this perk would grant more power than mrd+brd x2. Right, not OP at all! ;D
Not better make resistance cap 60% for all characters by default? ... And if you do so, maybe cap all builds HP, dps, APs and range to same ammounts, just to make sure that none of builds is better that others in any way. :facepalm
1. Tanks as a fighting class have been already nerfed a lot (all other builds boosted, so it's same thing). You want to make it completely useless now?
2. Perk would discredit existence not only of Tougness, Even Tougher, but also usage of Psycho, Beer would be useless completely and what's more high technology armors equal to regular armors.
3. My build is 75% DR. So you just counter my two perks with one. GG
Sorry, but this suggestion is total garbage.
Post by: Mad Matt on May 21, 2015, 06:44:59 pm
Post by: BB. on May 21, 2015, 07:01:08 pm
4. If you want to counter high DR characters, make a dps build - use BRD, MRD, critical perks, Hit the Gaps. You either have decent firepower, either nice DR. Can't have both at the same time, that's the point of "variety of builds". This perk would give you even more firepower with no need to waste "space" for other dps perks (so leaves you a place to take some tanky perks instead). So, hidden way to have both?
Post by: Mad Matt on May 21, 2015, 07:13:01 pm
Post by: Chosen One on May 21, 2015, 07:34:27 pm
And how does it only effect tanks? As it's weitten, it would effect every weap and all on lower level characters.
Post by: Adams on May 21, 2015, 11:18:24 pm
Gatling is already strong. No need to buff it.Its about making weapons different and usefull (avenger in this case). It would make avanger viable choice due to its 3perk requirement while not making it op against lower dr characters and not being op with no dps perks at the same time.
4. If you want to counter high DR characters, make a dps build - use BRD, MRD, critical perks, Hit the Gaps. You either have decent firepower, either nice DR. Can't have both at the same time, that's the point of "variety of builds". This perk would give you even more firepower with no need to waste "space" for other dps perks (so leaves you a place to take some tanky perks instead). So, hidden way to have both?
Avanger with this weapon perk and no dps perks would do less dmg than lsw,gat,xl,think please.
OT: It seems like youre instead of comprehending the idea just trying hard to find any reason why it would be bad.
You can reroll you can try different builds and weapons in hinkley why dont you play with it for a while,test things out and try to improve the ideas instead of no-noing right away?
Post by: Urukhai on May 21, 2015, 11:34:08 pm
you can chose 'em right here
http://fallout2online.com/wikien/index.php/Weapons
you can check pictures of each weapon
http://fallout2online.com/wiki/index.php/%D0%9E%D1%80%D1%83%D0%B6%D0%B8%D0%B5
but it's in russian
Post by: Mad Matt on May 21, 2015, 11:52:27 pm
Post by: KestreL on May 22, 2015, 05:05:37 am
Lol. Against 50% of the server population this perk would grant more power than mrd+brd x2. Right, not OP at all! ;D
It would not. Use your brain.
Not better make resistance cap 60% for all characters by default?
That's just downright stupid. Use your brain.
2. Perk would discredit existence not only of Tougness, Even Tougher, but also usage of Psycho, Beer would be useless completely and what's more high technology armors equal to regular armors.
Balance starts at 60% DR. It's that moment when avenger and gatling are on even fields. If you take a look at the dear perk everyone is using - "Man Of Steel" It's removing +10 crit chance from enemy and removing half of their Better critical perk. With only 1 perk. Why does it remove 1 1/2 of enemies perk ? Because this perk is good at fighting only that. But when faced with Non crit bursters it's more useless than tits on a bull. Do you understand ? If not - Use your brain.
3. My build is 75% DR. So you just counter my two perks with one. GG
3 dt = 5% DR - 10% DR = 10% dr - So even tougher = 15% DR. - Use your brain.
Countered only 1 perk of yours. And that perk is a Level9 one.
Post by: Beer on May 22, 2015, 06:32:13 am
Post by: mojuk on May 22, 2015, 08:07:57 am
"Man Of Steel" It's removing +10 crit chance from enemyIt's not removing even 1 crit chance.
Post by: KestreL on May 22, 2015, 08:12:18 am
"Man Of Steel" It's removing +10 crit chance from enemyIt's not removing even 1 crit chance.
Man of steel don't add +10 crit mode? hm, i must have confuse it with other server or smth
Post by: VVish on May 22, 2015, 02:12:32 pm
Still, I'd like to see this perk with high stats demands, so it'll be very hard to make it 2x brd + crits + stoppingpower. More stable damage, but no crits - that's fine.
Post by: BB. on May 22, 2015, 04:46:12 pm
Man of steel don't add +10 crit mode? hm, i must have confuse it with other server or smthMoS affects crit power, not chance. Use your brain. LOL :D
Ok. I admit I'm harshly against this idea because it would nerf my build and in cost of it improve only one other build... yours. This way of thinking is justified in this case I think, as you speak all the time of "balance and fairness" in the game. Your choice is to be dps. My choice is to have high DR without much easy firepower. Why would you like to make me not being able to use mine and improve yours?
Being objective:
You want to make Avenger equal to Gatling, because "Gatling is stronger". That way of thinking ("nerf or bump something, because it's weaker than counterpart") is wrong. Gatling is strong for a reason.
- It's much harder to obtain - only from Gunrunner's Quest (which is easy, but boring - on a side, I would personally delete Gatling from this quest or make weapon deteriorated) and Enclave Patrolmans, that aren't that hard to beat with proper build, but still tricky (bypasses) and drop deteriorated weapons so you need to spend some time to get few good guns from it.
- You can't craft it - you can't have bonuses on it. You can have on Avenger, making it sometimes ridiculously strong (300+ dmg crits on range).
- With proper dps build Avenger can still be more dangerous than Gatling. The only drawback connected is that your character is no longer tanky.
So you want to make Avenger as strong (or even stronger with proper build, especially with range bursts) than Gatling, skipping Gatling's drawbacks. And you also forget that Gatling can be countered by Tesla/Power armor. Avenger only by high DR. Tesla wearers would get basically instakilled by Avenger builds with this perk. Using high-tech armors over regulars wouldn't change anything.
And if it's to work with other weapons, it would bump powerful guns even more...
In my opinion Avengers works just fine and there is no need to bump burster build even more.
Post by: KestreL on May 23, 2015, 10:08:46 am
Quote
I think overall idea is good, however this can be lethal with long-range burster with LSW or XL, they'll simply do quite a lot of damage on range, which is already high imo.
Currently in TC not many people are drinking beer for that +5% damage resistance due to inability to hex target with RL properly. So the difference would not be much. Also considering to get 3x brd, Hit the gaps, 2x crit perk + Stopping power would leave you with 1 toughness and 196hp.
However I do agree with requirement of curtain SPECIAL to get this perk. 6ST 4INT would seem decent.
You know, back in 2238 there was crit bursters that had chance to bypass armor and all critical modifers. This class was slightly unbalanced. But still not OP.
Quote
Ok. I admit I'm harshly against this idea because it would nerf my build and in cost of it improve only one other build... yours. This way of thinking is justified in this case I think, as you speak all the time of "balance and fairness" in the game. Your choice is to be dps. My choice is to have high DR without much easy firepower. Why would you like to make me not being able to use mine and improve yours?
Congradulations. You've figured out this perk is good against tanks. Same as quick recovery good against snipers, also same as stonewall against grenade launcher.
Quote
In my opinion Avengers works just fine and there is no need to bump burster build even more.
Congradutions x2 - You've learned to summerize everything in 1 sentence that I'm just gonna disagree with. Cuz obviously all your other things you typed came out of your ass.
ps: A wipe changelog comes from ideas, op or not, everything gets balanced at a point, shitting on a suggestion just because "i have a tank alt, fuck you" is not good. VVish gave good points, you gave statistics from ass & rage.
Post by: Adams on May 23, 2015, 11:51:41 am
I think overall idea is good, however this can be lethal with long-range burster with LSW or XL, they'll simply do quite a lot of damage on range, which is already high imo.
Still, I'd like to see this perk with high stats demands, so it'll be very hard to make it 2x brd + crits + stoppingpower. More stable damage, but no crits - that's fine.
what lsw? keyword "weapon" perk like penetrate accurate long range etc. you get the point.
Post by: Ed Wood on May 23, 2015, 06:39:04 pm
Generaly the best idea for a long time now!
Post by: KestreL on May 23, 2015, 07:21:45 pm
Spoiler: show
Sorry, but this suggestion is total garbage.
You're like that 1 out of 10000 dislikes that actually +1's justin biebers music video.
Post by: Ed Wood on May 24, 2015, 05:28:30 am
Post by: DocAN on May 24, 2015, 09:18:36 am
Post by: Adams on May 24, 2015, 09:21:54 am
why suggestion title says it a weapon perk ?Becuase its supposed to be a weapon perk but apparently some people have problems reading with comprehension.
Post by: BB. on May 24, 2015, 11:19:44 am
why suggestion title says it a weapon perk ?Becuase its supposed to be a weapon perk but apparently some people have problems reading with comprehension.
Also considering to get 3x brd, Hit the gaps, 2x crit perk + Stopping power would leave you with 1 toughness and 196hp.:facepalm
However I do agree with requirement of curtain SPECIAL to get this perk. 6ST 4INT would seem decent.
Post by: KestreL on May 24, 2015, 12:16:36 pm
The idea for it being built in weapon or as perk someone must pick is completely up to developers or what they think is balanced. Overall, it's a suggestion anyways
Post by: BB. on May 24, 2015, 01:41:13 pm
BRD is a weapon perk. MRD is a weapon perk. (Guess it just matters the way people see it)http://www.fonline-reloaded.net/wiki/index.php?title=Category:Weapon_Perks
Post by: KestreL on May 24, 2015, 03:04:11 pm
1st: idea where it's free on only 1-2 weapon type.
2nd: idea where it's a perk which people can put on their builds.
Too late to change title of suggestion anyways.
Post by: VVish on May 25, 2015, 01:44:31 am
Gatling Laser.
Gatling doesn't need any damage dealing perk.
It does 80-100 damage on range to any kind of build, since 90% of all armors is camk2 and there is no perk that can decrease it's damage. All builds equal in front of it.
Spoiler: Proof • show
Has range of 40. 3 shots per clip.
Can be used by EW snipers as self-defense on hexing range, also with critbuild gatling shots are deadly blows for 180-200 damage.
Instakills \ nearly kills target in onehex blow.
Really big range for damage dealer.
Can do splash damage in small cone.
Very stable in DPS, because of only few bullets need to hit the target.
Drawbacks:
Needs 7(6 with brof) ap to shoot, so it needs jet\actionboys to be used. However due to overall perk cheapness, you can allow yourself 1\2 actionboys without much suffering.
Weapon needs relatively more time to farm it + ammo (but if really they drop from Enclave like shit, with MFC rain from same place, so don't know what's the problem for EW users with getting enough amount of this weapon), no bonuses, no weapon perk like "accurate" demands more skillpoints into Energy Weapon to use.
Splash damage hits teammates hard.
Avenger minigun.
It needs minimum 2x damage dealing perks to execute, to deal damage on range equal to gatling - 3.
It does very unstable damage on range to any kind of build, since there is a lot of bullets in bursts, so chance to miss is higher, it decreases stability of damage, making range bursts unreliable. Thus critbuilds working bad, because of bullets missing instead of hitting target and rolling crit.
Has range of 35. 3 shots per clip.
Can deal devastating damage if all bullets hit to paper characters - jet users, 1x toughness, snipers.
It's good in hex range, can do oneshots\nearlykills for jet users\other damage dealing characters, but with that bullets misses it can sometimes do ridiculously low damage (to be honest this can be applied to any weapon, hexing is suffering without being sure it'll deal full damage instead of half bullets disappearing, avenger just suffer most cuz most bullets per barrage).
Critbuilds, however, can score incredible damage (more than 200) if got lucky, bet that luck is rare.
Can do splash damage in moderate cone, very good benefit in some cases.
Can use bonuses, also has "Accuracy" perk, that somehow decreases amount of BG skill needed to operate the gun (it doesn't help much, from what I heard avenger user still needs it's bg skill around 270).
Drawbacks:
7(6 with brof) requires either jet or ca+1ap\+1ap weapon or action boys to shoot twice. If used with jet as solution, it becomes very paper, so price is too high.
Range of getting pizduley - 35 firerange is a range where only tank builds can feel somehow safely, with good chances of survival, making non-tank avenger users good frag meat, but bad damage dealers.
Builds with high DR pretty much ignore avenger in ground, especially with DT\DR armors.
Splash damage hits teammates, requires precious positioning, that decreases time before damage is dealt.
Conclusions:
2x unreliable bursts is not worth investing brds and actionboys\crits.
It's much easier to counter damage from avenger (and also some other weapons), then to counter damage from gatling.
Tanks dealing more stable and reliable damage, than bursters. Gatling-tank users just dealing more damage.
For range fight LSW is better than avenger, even if all damage dealing perks applied.
Suggestions:
Gatling damage from 64-84 to 63-79.
To do something with avenger - best option is to make damage stable, so damage dealing perks will be worth it, but to lower crazy crits from it. Imo it's not good to see snipers dying from 1(!) blow sometimes.
That's why Stopping Power as perk for build or as perk for weapon can find it's place.
Post by: Ed Wood on May 25, 2015, 06:39:34 am
Yeah, I get it. The suggestion kinda split into 2 ideas as it went along.
1st: idea where it's free on only 1-2 weapon type.
2nd: idea where it's a perk which people can put on their builds.
Too late to change title of suggestion anyways.
Well yeah i totaly missunderstud this too... anyway the idea is good but not as a weapon's perk only as a player character perk so it would be optional and not a given thing via using the weapon!
I think the best way would be to make this perk as a two lvl perk first one reduces all resist to 70-75% max and the second will further reduce it to 60-65% this is what i think!
Post by: KestreL on May 25, 2015, 08:05:30 am
Post by: BB. on May 25, 2015, 08:11:53 am
I would add Tesla armor to Gatling's drawbacks. I know that people do not use it because of low normal resistance (still most weapons in the server are based on normal dmg), but with proper usage it is a big deal (f.e. sniper using Tesla being on maxed range makes Gatling's user unable to use his range to kill him easily). But I can't disagree with overall comparison.
(http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j186/Liverrin/thumbupicon.png~original)
Well, Perhaps all that is needed to make Avenger a better weapon to fit balance would be to make ammo mode - 40% DR instead of -30%. And nerf XL by -4min -4max so xl doesnt get buffed but avenger does.I'm not sure if 40% wouldn't be too much, probably 35% would be enough but I like the idea. That way also P90 would be a decent rival to other guns again. See? It's not so hard to think of something useful and balanced.
Post by: S.T.A.L.K.E.R on May 25, 2015, 08:18:59 am
**X-Files theme **
Post by: KestreL on May 25, 2015, 08:20:15 am
What if its not the guns, but the toughness perks and armors causing the problems ??? ??? ???
**X-Files theme **
My tests were in hinkley. The avenger is not even balanced there.
Also, it would not effect snipers much. Currently snipers are 25% DR or 40% dr if they eat psycho, it changes only 5% dr if ammo dr% was changed.
Post by: BB. on May 25, 2015, 08:35:08 am
What if its not the guns, but the toughness perks and armors causing the problems ??? ??? ???(http://i.imgur.com/sM8JGKb.png)
**X-Files theme **
Delete all the armors!
Post by: Urukhai on May 25, 2015, 09:23:02 am
Post by: KestreL on May 25, 2015, 09:34:25 am
Post by: Urukhai on May 25, 2015, 10:20:45 am
How is this related ?
The topic derived into a mess of Ideas. Why don't you just modify armors or perks instead of adding new ?
Post by: Adams on May 25, 2015, 12:41:42 pm
14:29:42 • Motoko was hit for 92 hit points by you.
14:29:49 • Motoko was hit for 74 hit points by you.
14:29:56 • Motoko was hit for 90 hit points by you.
14:30:08 • Motoko was hit for 79 hit points by you.
14:30:20 • Motoko was hit for 87 hit points by you.
14:30:24 • Motoko was hit for 64 hit points by you.
14:30:29 • Motoko was hit for 33 hit points by you.
14:31:45 • Motoko was hit for 68 hit points by you.
14:31:57 • Motoko was hit for 89 hit points by you.
14:32:04 • Motoko was hit for 65 hit points by you.
14:32:08 • Motoko was hit for 49 hit points by you.
14:32:18 • Motoko was hit for 71 hit points by you.
14:32:28 • Motoko was hit for 93 hit points by you.
14:32:32 • Motoko was hit for 75 hit points by you.
14:32:38 • Motoko was hit for 59 hit points by you.
Avenger minigun with stopping power perk 3brd 1% crit chance against camk2 adrenaline rush 2 toughness psycho beer
14:25:23 • Motoko was hit for 99 hit points by you.
14:25:33 • Motoko was hit for 103 hit points by you.
14:25:42 • Motoko was hit for 114 hit points by you.
14:25:50 • Motoko was hit for 96 hit points by you.
14:26:46 • Motoko was hit for 49 hit points by you.
14:26:52 • Motoko was hit for 115 hit points by you.
14:27:00 • Motoko was hit for 85 hit points by you.
14:27:10 • Motoko was hit for 115 hit points by you.
14:27:21 • Motoko was hit for 100 hit points by you.
14:27:29 • Motoko was hit for 93 hit points by you.
Keep in mind that dmg against any character with DR below 60% would stay the same as it is now.
What would be so op?
Post by: KestreL on May 25, 2015, 01:02:39 pm
316
260
300
313
299
Without stopping power:
163
254
245
227
185
209
With this said. Stopping power seems op, but without stopping power seems super lame for something someone would invest 3 perks into.
So here comes my third idea:
Add stopping power to avenger weapon perk. Make it cap enemy damage resistance at 65% and remove more ranged damage perk perk, Make each Bonus range damage perk +3min +3max. And nerf avenger by -1min -1max.
This will make avenger a strong weapon against tanks. It will hex tanks for ~245 almost always and max 280. And adreinaline rush will not get in the way of this damage. With the cost of 2 perks.
Post by: BB. on May 25, 2015, 04:31:27 pm
Add stopping power to avenger weapon perk. Make it cap enemy damage resistance at 65% and remove more ranged damage perk perk, Make each Bonus range damage perk +3min +3max. And nerf avenger by -1min -1max.If it's a wish concert then bring back 20, 30, 40 lifegivers.
Post by: Adams on May 25, 2015, 09:03:28 pm
With this said. Stopping power seems op, but without stopping power seems super lame for something someone would invest 3 perks into.
Not op. gat deals around 220 without any dmg perks with ave we talking 3 perks imo it should be deadly.
Besides that onehex can be easily avoided and also countered with DT bonus armors.
Post by: VVish on May 26, 2015, 12:15:31 am
Code: [Select]
14:30:24 • Motoko was hit for 64 hit points by you.
14:30:29 • Motoko was hit for 33 hit points by you.
14:31:45 • Motoko was hit for 68 hit points by you.
14:32:04 • Motoko was hit for 65 hit points by you.
14:32:08 • Motoko was hit for 49 hit points by you.
14:32:38 • Motoko was hit for 59 hit points by you.
Out of 15 bursts in total, 6(!) of them were unreliable. Stopping Power won't fix anything with this, just increase alpha (maximum) strike to characters with DR above 65.
I found that annoying on XL rifle and P90 too, especially in hexing.
Conclusion at comments above:
Perks that counters other perks in this way is not good in my opinion, because they neglect the primal role of tank - to tank damage. Basically right now it's easier to tank normal damage than to deal normal damage, no doubt, but. Remember what avenger does with paper characters\jet users\snipers and always keep that in mind when thinking about this weapon.
What I suggest as perk for bursters:
Level 24+ one that will increase burst hitchances from 95% to 100%, so you'll not miss bullets with guarantee (unless target has high AC, here you should counter it with high weapon skill). Low requirements, so it'll be universally available to other guns also.
Post by: Adams on May 26, 2015, 07:23:38 am
Misses are part of fonline and if you can completely miss with an aim weapon without dealing any dmg i dont see any reason why you should always deal the same dmg with burst without any misses at all.
Out of 15 bursts in total, 6(!) of them were unreliable. Stopping Power won't fix anything with this, just increase alpha (maximum) strike to characters with DR above 65.Adrenaline rush kicked in.
What I suggest as perk for bursters:
Level 24+ one that will increase burst hitchances from 95% to 100%, so you'll not miss bullets with guarantee (unless target has high AC, here you should counter it with high weapon skill). Low requirements, so it'll be universally available to other guns also.
Post by: Adams on June 02, 2015, 09:40:15 am