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Topic: [Completed list] Buffing/making low tier guns more lethal.  (Read 9474 times)

Mad Matt

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[Completed list] Buffing/making low tier guns more lethal.
« on: August 27, 2015, 03:03:20 pm »
Hello Wastelanders,

I would like to suggest something new, something different from suggestions made those days  ;D

I would like to show you my idea to buff a little bit damage of low tier guns, and  maybe some middle tier guns damage and how they should work.

First of all this not gonna make low tier stuff usefull in real PvP and TC, it's only idea to make game little bit harder (not too much, just riders and other desert scum would be able to deal few more points in damage) and in the same time make PvE more colorfull, not using only LSW or Pancors to farm NPCs, now all guns could be quiet usefull.

So, it goes like this, for now I will take on my workbench only pistols, next will be smg's and shotguns:

Buffing Mauser from those funny 8-13 damage to 13-18, or 15-20. Remember, it has only normal type of ammo which has no additional damage adj. and it's not good against armored targets cause sucks in term of piercing armors. So it would make more difference only against poor armored targets. Still would make little bit harder all those encounter and noobs would have those 5 dmg more...it's always something.


10mm pistol should be left as it is, or in some case buffed from 8-15 to 10-17, or in best case (don't know if it shouldn't be too much) 13-20.

Desert Eagle/DE exp.mag. buffed from 12-18 dmg to 15-21 or in extreme case to 17-25.
Now, it would be first pistol in game which should have nice bonus to critical power, +3(for revolver +5 in such a case) or +5 (+7 for revolver in such a case). Range could be buffed to 27, to make it more reliable than 10mm pistol.


.44 Magnum Revolver/.44 Magnum (Speed Loader) this gun should took more love in my opinion, 16-22 damage should be buffed to 20-26 or even better to 24-30 damage. Give it some love in critical power roll to: +5 (if DE would have +3 Crit.Power) or +7 (if DE would have +5). Buff .44 Magnum revolver range to it's speed loader cousin, both should have at least 20 range, but 23-25 would be ideal in my opinion...if you would ask me.

14mm Pistol is quiet usefull as it is now, but 25-35 damage would be better for such a caliber than 18-28, remember it shoots only AP ammo. Range should be buffed from 24 to 27/28, would be more reliable as for my taste. All in all it should be a real hand cannon. +5 or +7 bonus in critical roll terms would be nice too, don't you think so?

.223 Pistol should be left as it is. It's already powerfull and some kind of top-tier weapon from the craftable one's.

Edit: I would forget about Gauss pistol, of course it stays as it is, same as Zip Gun  :D

I hope you enjoy one way or another my post, and I hope you will not try to kill me for this or insult/bash. I just think it would make this game a little bit differential.

And now... say what do you think about my idea  :D


Edit ausf. II:

SMG's:

1. 10mm SMG. Buff the dmg to 10-17 (not more) in case if 10mm pistol would be buffed to 13-21 just in case to not make too over powered weapon on low tier. Pistol should have more adventage in single shot in way of this 3 additional dmg. Not much adventage over SMG, but still.

2. M3A1 "Grease Gun" SMG dmg is okay as it is, it's one-two hex smg with great ammount of dmg against low armored targets and mid ammount of dmg against heavier armored targets. The only thing I would buffed is range. Should be 2-3 hex more. 20 for single mode and 15 for burst is not much. And as heavier SMG than 10mm one's should has more reliable burst mode. It's heavier, cost more AP to shoot, so in final way should has less spread of ammo than 10mm one's. Dunno if it's possible to change, but should be able to put 10-12 of bullets from 15 burst into target from max 10 hexes. Just my opinion. Just don't make it as shotguns, putting all shells in target, it's not what I've mean :)

3. H&K is okay as it is, no need to buff it or nerf it. The only thing I can think about it in case of nerf/buff is last wipe change with lowering sneak while having this gun in hand. But I don't have idea if it was good or bad, etc. So I leave this gun as it is.

4.H&K G11 and H&K G11E, should stay as it is. In extreme case, but it should be disscussed it would have 5 shots burst but with no bullet spread. Some kind of sniper burst weapon. But it's only idea made fast without thinking about it really hard. I will leave it to you.


Shotguns:

1. Shotgun: Guys, old good shotgun isn't bad as it is now. I wouldn't touch it too much, eventually give it only 1-3 dmg buff. But not necessary and not too important.

2. Sawn-Off Shotgun, okay guys...here we have improvement to shotgun which one gives us 1/3 range of original gun in single shot, and 1/4 range in burst mode, same dmg and only one action point less while shooting...really? Make it death spreading over the wasteland close range weapon. So my suggestion here is +5 on critical power, 10 range  in case of single shot, 7 in case of burst. 19-27 dmg should be buffed to 22-30/25-33 in my opinion. 15% knockdown or 20% per bullet would be nice too. It should be some kind of alternative to SMG's, close range killer, but sucking on greater distances.Side note, it shouldn't take any materials to upgrade Shotgun to Sawn-Off.

3. Here, I would like to ask devs if is it possible to add some kind of single shooting shotgun as Remington, to make this way from civil shotguns to advanced automatic shotguns more clear. Some kind of single shooting only, 7-8 bullets magazine. Accurate perk with some 20-28 dmg per shot. It will be 1st tier small guns gunsmith gun, it will take place of Combat Shotgun

4. Combat shotgun is okay as it is, I see no need to buff it. It's not coincidence that it's the most crafted mid-tier gun, for use and for sell. Just move it to tier 2nd Small Guns Gunsmith, but no need for BPs.

5. H&K CAWS  and Pancor Jackhammer: CAWS is okay, but could be on the same level of usefullness as Pancor but should work in other way. For example CAWS as Close Assault Weapon System should have 20 range for single shots and 15 for bursts, but should shot 6/8 shells in burst and 24 shells in magazine. Damage should be buffed to the level of Pancor. While Jackhammer could have 4 shots burst, 25 burst range and 27/30 for single shot. What do you think guys?


Next update of this forum will bring some changes to assault guns, I'll be glad to see your feedback  ;)


Next ammount of changes was moved lower on this page, no more space in this post  :D

« Last Edit: September 13, 2015, 10:10:58 am by Mad Matt »
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Gimper

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Re: Buffing/making low tieg guns more lethal.
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2015, 03:59:53 pm »
I support all of this, especially the 14mm range and crit power buff. This is a great weapon for finesse cripplers, so the added crit roll and range could make it viable. (Or just add 14mm rifle)

Mad Matt

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Re: Buffing/making low tieg guns more lethal.
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2015, 04:15:47 pm »
UPDATE ausf. III

Assault Rifles:

1. Tommy Gun  is such a nice assault rifle but sucks a lot on higher levels. Main disadventage of this gun is it spread, but it's okay. It's damn low tier. Second disadventage is no AP ammo, cool cause it has not any AP ammo. But third disadventage is something I can't get. 3-20 dmg...why? Buff it to 10-20 or 10-23.
Next thing is range, nerf single shot from 32 to 30 and buff the burst range to17 or even 20 hexes.
Last thing for Tommy, what do you say about making it's magazine with 30 (or in extreme case 40/50) capacity only and 10 bullets burst but use this image:


Spoiler: show


Than Tommy we use nowadays image, would be one with 20 bullets burst, expanded magazine up to 100 bullets requairing 2nd tier Small Guns Gunsmith.

2. Assault Rifle/Assault Rifle Exp.Mag.  First of all it shouldn't require Adv.Workbench to craft. Damage and range is okay as it is for me,but not with such a big burst option.
I would nerf burst to 8 bullets and magazine capacity to 32. Exp. Cap. should be nerfed same way to 56. Or another way leave 36 ammo cap and 60, but nerf burst to six bullets. (I think first option is better). You would ask why? Cause it's gonna be long range assault rifle with weaker burst option than it's alternative short range burst FN FAL.


3.FN FAL should remain with it's damage and range, only burst option could be "improved" to 12 bullets, as well as it's chamber could be buffed to 24 bullets. Sam goes with FN FAL HPFA.

4.FN FAL (Night Sight) should be an craftable optional way to improve FN FAL. To make it  different from HPFA, I would suggest buff damage to 15-25 same way as HPFA, give it 24 ammo capacity chamber. Next, buff the range to 45 for single shot and 40 for burst. Next thing, the burst should use only 6 bullets. It should be long range, accurate gun with burst which should has almost non spread. Additional give it Night Sight perk, it will give +30-50% bonus to aim at in-game night hours. Night sight as part could be crafted from El. Parts, Metal Parts and 2 Junk for example.

5.XL 70E3 will be removed from crafting or something similar as I heard. Damge is good, range is awsome. I would just buff ammo capacity to 50 and nerf burst to 10 bullets with low bullets spread. For bursters should be another high-tier weapon, it should be more sniping gun in my opinion. XL has scope for some reason I think....



Next update, will be about rifles, granades and other weapons...stay in contact wastelanders :)


LAST UPDATE OF MY SUGGESTION


Okay, so now we gonna take on workbench our good old

RIFLES:

Of course BB guns and Gauss Rifle stay as it is, nothing to change here.

1. Hunting Rifle - damage on 8-20 level is really funny. This ammo isn't armor piercing, so even Leather Armor Mk II or Metal Armor and we shot for 3-5 dmg. It really need a buff to dmg, and I would suggest 15-25 or 13-23. All in all buff it at least for those 5 points, belive me it will make a difference.

2. Scoped Hunting Rifle, as above buff it's dmg. Add for it +5% crit chance and +5 hex of range. It's scoped for some purposes, and would be nice lower level sniper rifle.

3. Sniper Rifle could be buffed in max and low dmg for 5 points, and add +5% to crit chance, but it's just low priority suggestion as for now Sniper Rifle is enough powerfull.
Just in my opinion should has same dmg as .223 pistol, it uses same ammo etc.


Rest:

I would suggest here only four things:
-leave Grenade Pistol as it is,
-make Grenade Launcher craftable on normal workbench but require blueprints, buff it's range from 25 to 30 and make it one shooting gun. Not 3 bullets in chamber, I know it's not simulator...but it's odd...like double barrel shotgun would have 4 shots...
-add high tech and high tier Grenade Launcher with 6-8 shots with 23-25 range and little lower dmg let's say 60-80 6 or 7 AP shot to not make it troll weapon.
-change molotovs to fire dmg but not depending on perks buffing fire dmg weapons (pyromaniac) or just buff it's dmg. For now it's quiet shitty weapon.

I'll wait for feedback.



I support all of this, especially the 14mm range and crit power buff. This is a great weapon for finesse cripplers, so the added crit roll and range could make it viable. (Or just add 14mm rifle)

Uff, so finally someone gets my idea :D
TBH Gimper when I saw that YOU answered I was almost sure it was some bashing me post with a lots of WTF :D
Anyway thx for your answer, with such an idea you would use top tier guns only inPvP, while farming NPCs and dungeons would be made with low/mid tier weapon to save best guns and ammo for better fights. No more sciencing every Superior/Advenced/Unique gun from dungeons etc.

BTW. Small guns especially need some love. BG even low tier M60 can punch almost everyone very hard. Hard to say the same about pistols, shotguns, smgs etc except top tier one's
« Last Edit: September 13, 2015, 10:09:36 am by Mad Matt »
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killer1986chris

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Re: Buffing/making low tieg guns more lethal.
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2015, 04:23:36 pm »
+1 I like small guns, but they could use a bit of love from the powers that be.

Mad Matt

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Re: Buffing/making low tieg guns more lethal.
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2015, 04:34:38 pm »
+1 I like small guns, but they could use a bit of love from the powers that be.

I'm happy you like my point too, killer1986chris.
As we know SG are little bit UP except it's top tier examples.
More usefull weapon? More fun.
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Slowhand

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Re: Buffing/making low tier guns more lethal.
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2015, 07:50:57 pm »
1. Shotgun: Guys, old good shotgun isn't bad as it is now. I wouldn't touch it too much, eventually give it only 1-3 dmg buff. But not necessary and not too important.

2. Sawn-Off Shotgun, okay guys...here we have improvement to shotgun which one gives us 1/3 range of original gun in single shot, and 1/4 range in burst mode, same dmg and only one action point less while shooting...really? Make it death spreading over the wasteland close range weapon. So my suggestion here is +3 on critical power, 10 range  in case of single shot, 7 in case of burst. 19-27 dmg should be buffed to 22-30/25-33 in my opinion. It should be some kind of alternative to SMG's, close range killer, but sucking on greater distances.

You should start thinking out of the box. The whole combat system is way too linear. As I looked on the code, changing damage values is not the only thing you can do.

Shotguns should work as they work RL. The closer you are, the higher the damage, critical threat, knock-back chance. You can make up any formula you like, not just add 5 damage.. It can be implemented and isn't even hard, compared to making a new map with mobs that has some script, other than attack on sight.

Mad Matt

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Re: Buffing/making low tier guns more lethal.
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2015, 09:19:17 pm »
1. Shotgun: Guys, old good shotgun isn't bad as it is now. I wouldn't touch it too much, eventually give it only 1-3 dmg buff. But not necessary and not too important.

2. Sawn-Off Shotgun, okay guys...here we have improvement to shotgun which one gives us 1/3 range of original gun in single shot, and 1/4 range in burst mode, same dmg and only one action point less while shooting...really? Make it death spreading over the wasteland close range weapon. So my suggestion here is +3 on critical power, 10 range  in case of single shot, 7 in case of burst. 19-27 dmg should be buffed to 22-30/25-33 in my opinion. It should be some kind of alternative to SMG's, close range killer, but sucking on greater distances.

You should start thinking out of the box. The whole combat system is way too linear. As I looked on the code, changing damage values is not the only thing you can do.

Shotguns should work as they work RL. The closer you are, the higher the damage, critical threat, knock-back chance. You can make up any formula you like, not just add 5 damage.. It can be implemented and isn't even hard, compared to making a new map with mobs that has some script, other than attack on sight.

I just want to change small things, I want to post another thread with suggestions to change shotguns effects etc but not in this thread. This is to overall buffing SG from low-mid tier. And some other weapons not SG one's. Anyway thx for advice, I was changing some guns stats but didn't tought it can be changed in such a way as you are saying. Slowhand, you made many posts and suggestion threads, you seems to have some skill and knoledge, take a sit and help me with those shotguns for start. It's gonna be fun to work with you :)

Anyway, remember it will affect all shotguns. Not only those from low tier. I'm not thinking as close minded person, I just don't know about full power of FO engine to be honest. In such a case I will put info about reworking shotgun damage model, just let me rethink this case.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2015, 09:21:41 pm by Mad Matt »
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cthulchu

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Re: Buffing/making low tier guns more lethal.
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2015, 10:42:43 pm »
Shotguns should work as they work RL. The closer you are, the higher the damage, critical threat, knock-back chance. You can make up any formula you like, not just add 5 damage.. It can be implemented and isn't even hard, compared to making a new map with mobs that has some script, other than attack on sight.

It's just an example of increased complexity of the code, but it sounds very good and is extremely simple to implement for almost every weapon. And not only weapon :)

The only issue is testing, bug fixing and tweaking the formulas.

Blarney

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Re: Buffing/making low tier guns more lethal.
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2015, 04:47:38 am »
The H&K G and G11 guns are sadly outclassed by the P90, which is weird considering they can't be crafted and are annoying to find. Making them a competitive weapon with the P90  or changing them to be entirely different but better than they are now would be great.

14mm being comparable to the .223 would be cool too, giving it bonus crit roll would certainly do that, but it's damage shouldn't go anywhere near a 223 if it was to have such a large crit bonus, otherwise why use a 223 at all? (2 extra range and 5 extra multiplicative damage vs extra crit roll is not worth it). Maybe if the damage was kept as it (20-30) or if the .223 got a damage buff of 5 - 10... IDK I love SG too, but when the pistol choices of SG are compared to the pistol choices of EW.. SG comes off pretty averagely... Maybe if Gauss pistols were changed up a bit and spawned in caves (like alien blasters and scorchers), it could help a bit too, as they are pretty much a 223 pistol with 50 range.

Shotguns I did not read too much into how you want to change them as I don't use them enough to know their "value" but it does seem they are in a bad place right now, and not a viable PvP weapon when compared to other builds and guns. Changes to make shotguns a viable weapon would be nice, whatever those changes might be.

The rest is an easy +1.

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Re: Buffing/making low tier guns more lethal.
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2015, 06:22:20 am »
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I kinda wish that you can craft Caseless ammo, EMC I understand why you can't aside from being top tier.
It'd be cool if Alien blasters became super weapons.
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Mad Matt

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Re: Buffing/making low tier guns more lethal.
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2015, 09:45:23 am »
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I kinda wish that you can craft Caseless ammo, EMC I understand why you can't aside from being top tier.
It'd be cool if Alien blasters became super weapons.
It's subject for my another thread I will do, but not now :D
HQ Electronic Parts and HQ Fibers would be useable again to make those ammo or upgrade CA to CA mk II but should be very rare and hard to obtain, maybe some kind of dungeon from quest avaiable one per 24h or something.


Back to the topic, yes. I would change .223 pistol somehow to be alternative for 14mm and vice versa, but has no idea how to do it. That's why I ask for feedback from comunity side  :)

Blarney, please do me a favour and read my text about shotguns, you will see how I want to change them. It's not much, but should be fun and enough to make them different guns in one class.

I'm waiting for more answers, I will put next update to main post about Assault Rifles in 3 hours. 5-6 hours and I will add rifles. If I will find enough time, I will put other class weapons in one update today too. Just please once again, don't let this topic die...
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Mad Matt

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Re: Buffing/making low tier guns more lethal.
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2015, 11:01:27 am »
UPDATE ausf. III

Assault Rifles:

1. Tommy Gun  is such a nice assault rifle but sucks a lot on higher levels. Main disadventage of this gun is it spread, but it's okay. It's damn low tier. Second disadventage is no AP ammo, cool cause it has not any AP ammo. But third disadventage is something I can't get. 3-20 dmg...why? Buff it to 10-20 or 10-23.
Next thing is range, nerf single shot from 32 to 30 and buff the burst range to17 or even 20 hexes.
Last thing for Tommy, what do you say about making it's magazine with 30 (or in extreme case 40/50) capacity only and 10 bullets burst but use this image:


Spoiler: show


Than Tommy we use nowadays image, would be one with 20 bullets burst, expanded magazine up to 100 bullets requairing 2nd tier Small Guns Gunsmith.

2. Assault Rifle/Assault Rifle Exp.Mag.  First of all it shouldn't require Adv.Workbench to craft. Damage and range is okay as it is for me,but not with such a big burst option.
I would nerf burst to 8 bullets and magazine capacity to 32. Exp. Cap. should be nerfed same way to 56. Or another way leave 36 ammo cap and 60, but nerf burst to six bullets. (I think first option is better). You would ask why? Cause it's gonna be long range assault rifle with weaker burst option than it's alternative short range burst FN FAL.


3.FN FAL should remain with it's damage and range, only burst option could be "improved" to 12 bullets, as well as it's chamber could be buffed to 24 bullets. Sam goes with FN FAL HPFA.

4.FN FAL (Night Sight) should be an craftable optional way to improve FN FAL. To make it  different from HPFA, I would suggest buff damage to 15-15 same way as HPFA, give it 24 ammo capacity chamber. Next, buff the range to 45 for single shot and 40 for burst. Next thing, the burst should use only 6 bullets. It should be long range, accurate gun with burst which should has almost non spread. Additional give it Night Sight perk, it will give +30-50% bonus to aim at in-game night hours. Night sight as part could be crafted from El. Parts, Metal Parts and 2 Junk for example.

5.XL 70E3 will be removed from crafting or something similar as I heard. Damge is good, range is awsome. I would just buff ammo capacity to 50 and nerf burst to 10 bullets with low bullets spread. For bursters should be another high-tier weapon, it should be more sniping gun in my opinion. XL has scope for some reason I think....



Next update, will be about rifles, granades and other weapons...stay in contact wastelanders :)


LAST UPDATE OF MY SUGGESTION


Okay, so now we gonna take on workbench our good old

RIFLES:

Of course BB guns and Gauss Rifle stay as it is, nothing to change here.

1. Hunting Rifle - damage on 8-20 level is really funny. This ammo isn't armor piercing, so even Leather Armor Mk II or Metal Armor and we shot for 3-5 dmg. It really need a buff to dmg, and I would suggest 15-25 or 13-23. All in all buff it at least for those 5 points, belive me it will make a difference.

2. Scoped Hunting Rifle, as above buff it's dmg. Add for it +5% crit chance and +5 hex of range. It's scoped for some purposes, and would be nice lower level sniper rifle.

3. Sniper Rifle could be buffed in max and low dmg for 5 points, and add +5% to crit chance, but it's just low priority suggestion as for now Sniper Rifle is enough powerfull.
Just in my opinion should has same dmg as .223 pistol, it uses same ammo etc.


Rest:

I would suggest here only four things:
-leave Grenade Pistol as it is,
-make Grenade Launcher craftable on normal workbench but require blueprints, buff it's range from 25 to 30 and make it one shooting gun. Not 3 bullets in chamber, I know it's not simulator...but it's odd...like double barrel shotgun would have 4 shots...
-add high tech and high tier Grenade Launcher with 6-8 shots with 23-25 range and little lower dmg let's say 60-80 6 or 7 AP shot to not make it troll weapon.
-change molotovs to fire dmg but not depending on perks buffing fire dmg weapons (pyromaniac) or just buff it's dmg. For now it's quiet shitty weapon.

I'll wait for feedback.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2015, 06:09:21 pm by Mad Matt »
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Bad_Lieutenant

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Re: Buffing/making low tier guns more lethal.
« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2015, 11:24:00 am »
I like the idea with buffing revolver by adding +crit roll bonus it should be deadly like in the description "do you feel lucky punk? do you?"  ;)

second thing - shotguns (especially sawn off) should have more damage at very close range, maybe even on 1hex

I'm against nerfing XL burst to 10 bullets because with that it wouldnt be nice hexing weapon anymore,  unless there would be another hexing gun similiar to XL as it is now - that nerf would make p90 only 1hex SG PvP weapon worth to use

and remember when you started this thread you wrote that your suggestion is only for PvE game style and don't make any changes for PvP - but by nerfing XL it will

Mad Matt

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Re: Buffing/making low tier guns more lethal.
« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2015, 11:32:53 am »
I like the idea with buffing revolver by adding +crit roll bonus it should be deadly like in the description "do you feel lucky punk? do you?"  ;)

second thing - shotguns (especially sawn off) should have more damage at very close range, maybe even on 1hex

I'm against nerfing XL burst to 10 bullets because with that it wouldnt be nice hexing weapon anymore,  unless there would be another hexing gun similiar to XL as it is now - that nerf would make p90 only 1hex SG PvP weapon worth to use

and remember when you started this thread you wrote that your suggestion is only for PvE game style and don't make any changes for PvP - but by nerfing XL it will

I'm glad you liked my revolver buff :D


In case of Sawn-Off. As you can see, in such an option I wrote with more crit bonus, and maybe chance plus more dmg sawn-off will be really deadly in short range. CAWS will get new life in close range too. Pancor will be long range reliable shotgun. Maybe could have more dmg per shot with my option to make it 4 shells burst long range shotgun.

I won't really nerf XL, I just want make it no spread small burst long range weapon, and as I wrote only in case when devs would add another Assault Rifle to close combat, to compensate XL changes. So easy, I'm not going to kill bursters in this game. I just want to give them more alternatives. Your burster see someone on 30-40 hexes? No problem, you shot him with short bursts from XL with no spread. He comes closer? No problem, you swith to added by devs alternatvie assault rifle designated to Close Combat fights, and pew pew this punk down :D

Yes, I wrote it won't change PvP. And if you read closely my suggestion about XL, it would be changed ONLY if they would give ONE more Assault Rifle desiganted for close combat to make XL more sniper weapon. As addition I would say that XL will be changed probably to rare non-craftable item, and it was only loose suggestion with XL. So now worries pal :D
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Re: Buffing/making low tier guns more lethal.
« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2015, 01:26:52 pm »
Kilgore plans on making the Assualt Rifle as strong as the XLOE, and then making the XLOE uncraftable and better. Like how we have Vindicators.
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