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Topic: Making SPECIAL relevant  (Read 2007 times)

Admiral Zombie

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Making SPECIAL relevant
« on: May 29, 2015, 11:27:03 pm »
Whenever I show up, I always end up making some suggestion to increase diversity of buildcraft... Right now strength, intelligence, and charisma are dump stats, and basically can be dropped to 1, allowing the "more useful SPECIAL" to all be nearly maxed out.

The most use these stats have are for a very small handful of perks. For strength there is adrenaline rush, and more rarely stonewall. Intelligence has uh....PvE stuff I guess. Maybe some builds which require a really high skill% for multiple perks, but that is usually doable with minimal change.

Other than that these two only serve as a means to reduce grind in the game, which is almost relevant only for newer players and those without a well funded faction to help supply them.

Charisma has more questionable worth, being a dumpstat since the dawn of fonline practically. I'm a little skeptical to touch it though, as I don't know where companion builds stand in the meta these days. I'll leave discussion of this to others, until I have a better opinion of it.

The easiest way to make these SPECIAL relevant again is to have various perks require higher levels of them. But that is boring I think and adds mostly tedium. It doesn't add anything to the current gameplay and should be avoided. Coming up with ideas to fix this is a lot harder than new ideas for perks and traits, and I'm struggling. Here are a handful of possibilities to pick and choose from...


Actual Suggestions rather than rambling below. Pick one or some.

Strength
-Larger effect on melee damage, possibly making melee builds more useful or relevant. Right now it only adds +1...5, and only changes from strength 7 to 10. Instead add 1or2 damage for every point in strength (+20 for 10 strength though? Not sure. But only 10 doesn't seem like a whole lot)
-Affects critical rolls for melee combat only, +1% critical roll for every point of strength.
-Partly affect health per level, to a lesser degree than endurance
-Each point adds 1% critical resist?

Intelligence
-Increase critical roll, +1% for every point of intelligence (ranged only? for all? A high intelligence AND high strength character with potentially +20% critical roll with SPECIAL alone would be rather interesting, but I'm not sure about balance. More importantly it would be different)
-Critical resist for head alone?
-
-this one is tougher, look at some of the radical suggestions set in the spoiler below for more.


Radical changes, to potentially more than just strength/intelligence
Spoiler: show

-Allow for "half" health so that taking an odd number for endurance is viable
-Have the rate of AP regeneration static, the same for all levels of agility. Agility thus allows a bigger initial blast, doing 2-4 attacks in a row immediately. For whatever reason, I associate this with 6pool zerg rush if that makes any sense...
-Alternative to the above, intelligence determines AP regeneration, while agility determines total AP potential. Thinking quick on your feet for intelligence, compared to quick initial reaction for agility.
-Intelligence determines the perk rate. Very radical, would highly suggest adding in more and rebalancing perks in general though. I think it is a really cool idea if perks could be overhauled in general.

In general I would like to see the necessity of agility reduced, without increasing the tedium and amount of time "waiting." If AP were split between agility and intelligence, I would highly suggest a slight increase to both, with 10int giving slightly faster AP gain than 10agility does now, and 10 agility would probably give slightly more than 10AP total.

This is all radical change though, and even I'm unsure if they're any good. But its out there for others to judge, consider, and inspire possibly.

Ombra

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Re: Making SPECIAL relevant
« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2015, 02:11:27 pm »
+1 for STR rework, but isn't the INT +crit% a bit too much?

Beer

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Re: Making SPECIAL relevant
« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2015, 04:30:31 pm »
Stonewall used rarely? Youre kidding right? Almost every tank is a stonewall tank. And the only builds without adrenaline rush are some crit bursters or snipers/sneakers basically because the extra Dr and DT is so valuable without implants and hpa now. Strength also affects weapon drops so that is also a benefit. This was much more of an issue last session since you could more easily skip adrenaline rush because you could easily hit 90% Dr with hpa and dermals but even then stonewall was very important because of rocketspam and ko. Strength is fine as it is.

Though I agree it would be nice to see an Int rework because with gun skill books any build with more than 1 int is a fail and its only purpose is to reduce grind as you said.

General Devon Oliver

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Re: Making SPECIAL relevant
« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2015, 04:44:10 pm »
-1 fine as it is.
Merc For Hire, Universal Player

Kirkor

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Re: Making SPECIAL relevant
« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2015, 06:02:36 pm »
I think that SPECIAL points are good as they ar now.
But if you really want a change, I would suggest tying them with some perks the way Stonewall is tied with Strength, without lame nerfs or perk requirements taken out of someone's ass.
For example intelligence with some perk would give you crit resist bonus. The more int, the bigger the bonus is.

But still I would leave things as they are now, because there will always be a dump stat, no matter what you do...

Admiral Zombie

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Re: Making SPECIAL relevant
« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2015, 08:03:17 pm »
Stonewall used rarely? Youre kidding right? Almost every tank is a stonewall tank. And the only builds without adrenaline rush are some crit bursters or snipers/sneakers basically because the extra Dr and DT is so valuable without implants and hpa now. Strength also affects weapon drops so that is also a benefit. This was much more of an issue last session since you could more easily skip adrenaline rush because you could easily hit 90% Dr with hpa and dermals but even then stonewall was very important because of rocketspam and ko. Strength is fine as it is.

Though I agree it would be nice to see an Int rework because with gun skill books any build with more than 1 int is a fail and its only purpose is to reduce grind as you said.

It is used less often than many other perks, and is a more niche build. It is "rare" but not unused like some perks. What "rare" means can vary, but it isn't an important point. The point I was trying to make is that some of these SPECIAL's only purpose is to achieve some other ends, such as a perk.

I do agree that strength has far more use than intelligence. But going by common sense, it is harder to come up with new uses for intelligence than it is for strength. I was just throwing ideas out, moreso to get discussion started at the least, or to see if anyone could be inspired towards a better idea.


I think that SPECIAL points are good as they ar now.
But if you really want a change, I would suggest tying them with some perks the way Stonewall is tied with Strength, without lame nerfs or perk requirements taken out of someone's ass.
For example intelligence with some perk would give you crit resist bonus. The more int, the bigger the bonus is.

But still I would leave things as they are now, because there will always be a dump stat, no matter what you do...

I actually love this idea, +1 whole heartedly. I'm not sure of crit resist/bonus, but just the idea of new perks that scale with a SPECIAL stat. I'm all for new perks in general, anything that promotes and allows more varied buildcraft between characters.

I disagree completely with the final line about dump stats though. While nearly every build will probably have one or more dump stats, the goal I'm shooting for is that the dump stat will vary from character to character at least. What is the best stat to dump for one character may not be the same for another. As it is now, intelligence, charisma, and strength are the leading dump stats it seems like.


Sidenote, what are people's opinions about splitting up what some of the special do amongst other special while bumping up their current effectiveness slightly? Intelligence determining the speed of AP regeneration, while agility determines total AP, strength provides some resistances and healing rate (or provides more starting health), but endurance provides total health

And second sidenote: If SPECIAL were revised, would it make more sense to revise it alongside a revised set of perks and traits, combining dicussion and planning into one topic/project? Would weapon update have to be worked into there as well? It seems hard to balance each of these in a vacuum without consideration for what may be done to the other set of things as well in the future.

Are the devs even interested in that, or are they satisfied with where things are now and don't want to risk making things worse

Kaaon

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Re: Making SPECIAL relevant
« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2015, 11:13:34 am »
what are you suggesting would rework whole pvp balance and mechanics of game so you can forget about it as "whole suggestion"

about ST and IN alone.. both are useful in some ways but it could be improved

ST is used for miners/crafters, as perk requirement and for players (adrenaline rush, stonewall) and also to meet ST requirement for some weapons (for example i use buffout and +st armor to have enough hit chance with gauss rifle or bozar and i would also welcome ST implant)
it is also good for players which are lazy or dont have enough time to level up 1 ST character
i already heard that there are some other plans about making ST useful in a little bit other way but thats still in stars

IN is useful for all kind of non pvp characters like lockpicker, crafter, miner, barter, thief etc.. its not useless, some SPECIAL points are more for pvp, others for pve, it makes sense
but what i dont like about IN in this game is gap in level needed between some builds, i can make shitty sniper lvl 24 or grind for week nonstop to level up 1 INT sniper which requires about level 100 to be viable in pvp (thats what i did)
sneaker is another good example because he requires most leveling from all builds, good sneaker build requires like level 120 (crits, brd, minimum in, 300 bg, 300 sneak) while some other builds like tanks needs only lvl 35.. or you can make some trash build lvl 24 with high st/in if you are lazy.. this game was never supposed to be about grinding levels to have better build for pvp
thats why it would be good to have some IN requirement on for example BROF or something like that what will set minimum INT to decrease gap between players and builds
it would be also good to cap sneak on 200+- with effect like 300 exactly as some other skills was changed, its "secondary" combat skill like FA or doctor, not primary and even if everyone would have sneak, i dont think that it would be issue since its useless without silent running becasue you also need light armor for it, even in previous season when there was tons of 200+ lvl chars noone used sneak on other then pure sneaker character

but thats a little bit offtopic, ofc -1 to suggestion
« Last Edit: June 01, 2015, 11:40:07 am by Seki »

Wind_Drift

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Re: Making SPECIAL relevant
« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2015, 04:02:18 pm »
^ My primary is like level 140 right now, with 3 IN. 300 sneak and two weapon skills above 250, I've planned it out and to get the build I want with 1IN I need level 300... probably not going to take it all the way there, but the personal time needed is the cost of IN as a dump stat IMO. It was IN 6 the first time I registered it.

ST is another one that is totally build dependent, my tank has 6, my crafter has 10, and my other has 1. Hell, the crafter even has skilled trait, he doesn't need perks.

I think there is plenty of variety in builds, in fact my main build wasn't possible several years ago. When we got SPECIAL removed from perk requirements, and went to skill% we were able to make more types of builds, it's less limiting.

However even if we put arbitrary requirements on perks we will simply just change the "usual" builds, people will still gravitate towards the better of the options. We wouldn't really be changing anything.

Also, my TB build last session had sneak without silent running.. it was useful
« Last Edit: June 01, 2015, 05:45:36 pm by Wind_Drift »