[PVP] Weapon, Ammo & General Balance

[Johnny]

FOr your information sailor moon thats what i do with all the sniper weapon i can get my hands on.

Spoiler: show

Joke aside as statted before we are talking about pvp balance here so whats currently happening with the few remaining players that still play here.
Turbo wasnt a problem when fights were big now half of fighters got turbo plasmas resulting inn stupid who got first KO fights.

Easiest solution is whats suggested stop spawning turbo in caves and make this weapon unstatted. You can still use a regular plasma rifle and be more strategic with it instead of brainlessly clicking on someone praying for KO.
IF youre a realtime player youll understand if youre a turn based player you can use any weapon for 1ap shot turbo is not necessary.

[Jake]

U cant make changes on half dead server, pre-wipe just because now you dont enjoy pvp. You trying to suggest changes influencing only % of the server population. Noobz cant find tpr in caves becaue you dont like the pvp balance now ? Really ? Johny plz, stop this madness.

Lets say your suggestion would be implemented. Then another thread will be started thats some faction is swarmed, or swarming others, or camping 24/7 or whatever else. And also, at the moment every faction have good amount of tpr'z so it will be a long time to wipe it out. In best scenario, one faction will finally aquire all uniqe tpr - I do not need to explain what will happen after that. In the other scenario, some ppl will loose it, some will grab it - still tpr will be in he market. You cant delete the stats of already aquired weapons, and I really doubt that that Kilgore will wake up in next month, and hit the "delete all stats from all tprz in game" button.

Dont get me wrong, I do not participate in TC pvp because I do play with factions. I understand its one of the most fun things to do in the game atm, but you cant suggest changes based only on PvP feedback. I see many new players joining game, trying hard till wipe and you want to take away weapons from them. In my opinion it is not good.
I play both rt and tb, I was a lazor spammer and to do that, I dont need a uniqe TPR. Shitty one from cave will do. Or LSW or lazor. Or I can die in one turn from .223 pistol spammer or whatever.

[Johnny]

Noobz cant find tpr in caves becaue you dont like the pvp balance now ? Really ? Johny plz, stop this madness.

SO basically your main argument against this is basically because beginners wont have access to turbos in caves? In that case leave it in caves and simply delete the remaining crit roll bonus on it.

you cant suggest changes based only on PvP feedback.

This is what this suggestion is about and the game too. Balance concerns PvP. I did  a lot pve but i dont see your point honestly this has nothing to do with beginners or pve. Newcomers dont need a turbo plasma ot a vindicator or a pulse to kill anything in pve and in turn based like you said turbo can be replaced by any other weapon.

This server is i believe thanks to changes made by kilgore very easy for beginners implants are accessible now and reno box can be looted for free, glow is doable with any character and wharehouse easier.

So im sorry but i still think turbo spawning in caves is too much. And the deletion of the stats is necessary for 5AP you can aim the eyes wich means two shots without jet wich means you can mix this with tank build wich means it doesnt need +5crit roll and stats.

The turbo is overpowered compared to the pulse or the gauss making it by far the best weapon of the game and its spawning in caves? Please

That is balance.

[Jake]

Delete crit roll ? Yes.

But please dont tell me pulse, gauss, turb in caves should not spawn and they should be only available to 'the chosen ones' on the server right now. Please, dont talk what newcomers need or dont need egarding higher tier weapons, because with that argument, you should only leave them 10mm smg and combat shotgun. They dont need anything else  for pve. Take all the other weapons from them, yeah. Crafted -ap combat shotgun will do.

Also, weapons from caves give newcomers ability for a better trade, since guess what: aside the all uniqe weapons amassed by the top factions controlling like 90% of the high tier stuff in huge amout, they also have the most caps.

And saying that glow, wh, reno can be looted for free - lol of course they can, no shit. But practicaly they are camped almost all day.I go there for fun but no fun in 1vs4 so can troll only with blue to waste their ammo.

Arguing about tpr OP in relation to gauss and pulse - they have much more range, theyre not useless.

[Johnny]

There are no such things as chosen ones. And you can craft more than a combat shotgun or 10mm smg. And trading with npcs is available to everybody not only biggest faction.
In pvp crafted weapons are very common nothing a beginner cannot do currently.

Considering your 4v1 we all have to deal with this find a faction to avoid this, or friends to go there where you find high tier stuff expect to find foes.

Like i said changes made are very beginner friendly and this is not a bad thing why not but im opposed to being able to find the best gear of the game without any difficulties sorry.

[Jake]

U afraid of noobz with tpr from caves or what ? Cause they cant get their hands of reall good and unique stuff so.

Joining a faction does not solve anything because you just becoming a part of campers of the tc or whiners. I see people on the radio, in the hub, gunrunnerz, wh memmbers of the well known faction who are probably some autistic kids, retardz or other thrash saying individualz. Swastikas, niggerz, mother rapist, cry babies, faggotz, whiners - I see them all the time. Played in 3 factions on 2238 and since then, I play alone - dont want to get radiated but all this bullshit. Its enough theyre laughing like kids after killing blue with 3ppl in PA.

I am more to the "open" world thant to server dominated entirely by 2 factions which controll most of the stuff. It's no fun joining a monopoly just to get the hands on the gear. I do not want to give away free items, PvP in TC earned them. But taking poor conditioned stuff from caves is just imo ridiculous. You go to to TC with tpr from cave, really ?

[Kilgore]

I will start with the biggest offenders in each category, and ironically these three are all of my main builds.
If any of these suggestions can't be applied this game session, please let me know and we can work on altering them.

Statted Turbo Plasma Rifles - Combining the innate critical power and -AP of the base weapon with additional critical power and -AP from stats make this weapon superior to every other single target weapon in the game. My suggestion is to remove stats from Turbo Plasma Rifles, similar to Bozars, Alien Blasters and Solar Scorchers. They will still be used frequently and still be extremely effective.

Gecko Breath - A no brainer when choosing ammo for the Pancor, regardless of build. It "power creeps" over slug ammo. My suggestion is to give it a +40% DR modifier and allow Pyromaniac to work with it. This will force Gecko Breath users to diversify their builds to use this ammo properly. This will also nerf the overpowered "Flaming Pancor Tanks" that are all over the place. An alternative would be to lower the damage slightly by adding +10% DR modifier.

Heavy Handed - Permanent knockdown with almost no chance to counter it. Neither Stonewall nor Power Armor can save you from the mighty naked troll with a Mega Power Fist. My suggestion is to lower the chance to knockdown to 90% at 10 Strength and 5% less for each missing Strength point. As an addition, I would also suggest that ALL melee weapons share this same percentage and have a Strength penalty of -2 (bringing KO chance down to 80% at 10 Strength). Mega Power Fists will have a Strength penalty of -1, and Super Sledges will have no Strength penalty at all to compensate for their lack of stats and higher AP cost. Maybe it will finally be viable to use the Wakizashi and Little Jesus in fights.

I normally avoid this kind of thread, because it's full of biased "feedback", nerfposts and "I've died please boost my weapon" messages 99% of the time. But this looks like a piece of reasonable feedback. Some time ago one player from The Young Killers suggested that I make a forum section for feedback but it would have to be heavily moderated - otherwise it would get full of bullshit and forum pvp in no time. Maybe we should consider it.

As I wrote few times, TPR is going to be really rare in next session, and if it happens it is spawned with some stats, then it would be rare^2. Should solve current problem with this weapon.

Gecko Breath ammo looks quite difficult to balance, because of it's damage type, obviously. We can again make it rare, unless someone has some other GOOD idea.

And about heavy handed - I don't see it often so I doubt there is a problem with that, also naked =/= with MPF. I know you are talking about current conditions where people have loads of stuff but after wipe it won't be the same and I don't want to break melee/unarmed more than it is.

[Melt]

I will start with the biggest offenders in each category, and ironically these three are all of my main builds.
If any of these suggestions can't be applied this game session, please let me know and we can work on altering them.

Statted Turbo Plasma Rifles - Combining the innate critical power and -AP of the base weapon with additional critical power and -AP from stats make this weapon superior to every other single target weapon in the game. My suggestion is to remove stats from Turbo Plasma Rifles, similar to Bozars, Alien Blasters and Solar Scorchers. They will still be used frequently and still be extremely effective.

Gecko Breath - A no brainer when choosing ammo for the Pancor, regardless of build. It "power creeps" over slug ammo. My suggestion is to give it a +40% DR modifier and allow Pyromaniac to work with it. This will force Gecko Breath users to diversify their builds to use this ammo properly. This will also nerf the overpowered "Flaming Pancor Tanks" that are all over the place. An alternative would be to lower the damage slightly by adding +10% DR modifier.

Heavy Handed - Permanent knockdown with almost no chance to counter it. Neither Stonewall nor Power Armor can save you from the mighty naked troll with a Mega Power Fist. My suggestion is to lower the chance to knockdown to 90% at 10 Strength and 5% less for each missing Strength point. As an addition, I would also suggest that ALL melee weapons share this same percentage and have a Strength penalty of -2 (bringing KO chance down to 80% at 10 Strength). Mega Power Fists will have a Strength penalty of -1, and Super Sledges will have no Strength penalty at all to compensate for their lack of stats and higher AP cost. Maybe it will finally be viable to use the Wakizashi and Little Jesus in fights.

I normally avoid this kind of thread, because it's full of biased "feedback", nerfposts and "I've died please boost my weapon" messages 99% of the time. But this looks like a piece of reasonable feedback. Some time ago one player from The Young Killers suggested that I make a forum section for feedback but it would have to be heavily moderated - otherwise it would get full of bullshit and forum pvp in no time. Maybe we should consider it.

As I wrote few times, TPR is going to be really rare in next session, and if it happens it is spawned with some stats, then it would be rare^2. Should solve current problem with this weapon.

Gecko Breath ammo looks quite difficult to balance, because of it's damage type, obviously. We can again make it rare, unless someone has some other GOOD idea.

And about heavy handed - I don't see it often so I doubt there is a problem with that, also naked =/= with MPF. I know you are talking about current conditions where people have loads of stuff but after wipe it won't be the same and I don't want to break melee/unarmed more than it is.

Alright, so TPR being rarer is a good move, let's see how that works out.

Heavy handed is not ultra common, but that doesnt mean it's not frustrating for anyone on the recieving end of this build. Perhaps lower the knockdown chance and increase the damage, changing it from a stunlocking damage over time build, to a powerful surprise burst type build. That way, when people get killed, they will feel less like they were cheesed to death and everyone continues to have a good time.

Yes, fire damage is tough to balance. Perhaps the balance should come in the form of a boost to fire DR on a larger variety of more common armors, such as Desert or NCR combat armors. Currently the only method of countering fire damage also happens to be the two rarest armor types.

[Troll]

Gecko Breath ammo looks quite difficult to balance, because of it's damage type, obviously. We can again make it rare, unless someone has some other GOOD idea.

Okay folks, I have something to start with, featuring stats changes for flamer and gecko breath ammo and pyromaniac perks:
Actual pyromaniac perk is +20 flat damage each.
Flamer damage is 100-125=>112 average
(112-4[DT])*0.7[CA mk2]+40[2 perks]=115 damage
Pancor damage is 22-30=>26 average
(26*5-1*5[DT rounded up])*0.7=88 damage

Instead of adding 20 flat damage with each perk and nothing with pancor, we could:
-set +20dr mod on gecko breath
-add +5 flat damage instead of 20 (like fastshot) and -10 dr with each pyromaniac perk
-add 5 min and max damage to flamer

New flamer damage (both perks) is 105-130=>117 average
(117-4[DT])*0.9[CA mk2]+10[2 perks]=112 damage

New pancor damage (with both perks) is 22-30=>26 average
(26*5-1*5[DT rounded up])*0.70+10=98 damage

New pancor damage (with 1 perk)
(26*5-1*5[DT rounded up])*0.60+5=80 damage

New pancor damage (no perk)
(26*5-1*5[DT rounded up])*0.50=63 damage

After fix:
-flamer damage is almost the same with both perks (-3 average damage)
-pancor damage without perks was decreased from 88 to 63
-having one pyromaniac increases damage to 80 (still lower than actual)
-having both perks increases damage to 98 (better than how it is now, but at the cost of 2 perks,  a specific build)

It might not be perfect but on the paper it seems to work, since having both pyromaniac perks will be at the cost of a third lifegiver or a even tougher, 285 hp and 65 dr with beer and psycho or 245 hp and 75 dr with same perks. And of course gecko breath shells should stay non craftable and expensive. Any knockdown effect should also be removed with that ammo. It burns you, but can't push you down like slugs. Same as frag/plasma grenades. Maybe increase a bit the knockdown effect on slugs to make it also a good choice if you don't have any perks. Something else that could be good, but I don't know if the engine allows that, is to lower pancor range from 25 to 20 when it's loaded with gecko breath.

A big set of changes for the balancing of a single weapon, but that's the best I could think of right now.

[S.T.A.L.K.E.R]

Gecko Breath ammo looks quite difficult to balance, because of it's damage type, obviously. We can again make it rare, unless someone has some other GOOD idea.

Well, making the pancor loose about 10-15 hex range when loaded with gecko would be a nice change (25 hexes burst with a shotgun is just :/ I mean its possible but when all shells land? its weird )

As for heavy handed, I think strength and endurance should play a factor.  a guy with 7 ST has like 25% chance of being knockdown by someone with heavy handed something like this (without stonewall)

[Troll]

Stonewall should work against heavy handed. But for those with low ST and no stonewall, heavy handed should stay as it is.

[BB.]

Stonewall should work against heavy handed. But for those with low ST and no stonewall, heavy handed should stay as it is.

Personally I believe that HtH at the moment is working in a wrong way. It should deal decent damage, not make 10dmg-knockdowns each punch.

So I would add extra damage (+15 maybe?) to unarmed attacks coming from Heavy Handed trait but nerf it's knockdown - make it related to opponent's strenght. For every point of ST character gains 5% of resistance against Heavy Handed's knockdowns (or 10%/2 ST so 1 ST chars don't have even 5%). Stonewall should double % value. That way 1 ST characters would still get knocked down everytime, 10 ST stonewall tank would never fall down from a signle punch, other 10 ST HtH character would get knocked down in 50% of cases (no more "who hits first wins") and average no-stonewall tank still gets some (25%) resistance.

What do you think? Heavy Handed wouldn't be so terribly retarded, but still usefull and there would be a reason to take ST other than perks requirements or weapon drop. Currently most build take 1, 5 or 6 ST, other values are rather waste.

[Mighty]

If HtH so OP, why people don't play HtH characters ?
How many players use CC for pvp ?

[Troll]

HtH is OP only in 1 vs 1 fights or small scale pvp, like 2 vs 2 maximum. Because in higher number they get killed one by one. 3 HTH VS 3 avengers is like :
-hth 1 is hit for 300 damage and got rekt
-hth 2 is hit for 300 damage and got rekt
-avenger 1 is hit for 80 damage and KD
-hth 3 is hit for 200 damage
-avenger 1 is hit for 80 damage and KD
-hth 3 is hit for 200 damage and got rekt
-ave,ger 1 uses first aid
End of combat

[Mighty]

HtH is OP only in 1 vs 1 fights or small scale pvp, like 2 vs 2 maximum. Because in higher number they get killed one by one. 3 HTH VS 3 avengers is like :
-hth 1 is hit for 300 damage and got rekt
-hth 2 is hit for 300 damage and got rekt
-avenger 1 is hit for 80 damage and KD
-hth 3 is hit for 200 damage
-avenger 1 is hit for 80 damage and KD
-hth 3 is hit for 200 damage and got rekt
-ave,ger 1 uses first aid
End of combat

You played sometime a OP HtH ?